Russian-Georgian relations have become so strained that some pro-Kremlin spin-masters have lost no time in predicting and even announcing the date of a war. To date, Russia has adopted a whole range of measures against Georgia, including sanctions, a rail and air blockade, and a tougher migration policy on Georgian nationals. Moscow’s pretext for exacerbating bilateral relations was the arrest in Tbilisi and subsequent transfer of Russian officers, who the Georgian authorities say were engaged in espionage. What solution can be found for this situation, which many experts say is almost irresolvable? Are mediators required to settle the Georgian- Russian conflict? Can Georgian society split under the pressure of Russian sanctions? Will Georgian hopes for Europe’s support it in its face-off with Russia be realized? This is the subject of the following interview with Grygol KATAMADZE, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Georgia to Ukraine.
“Commenting on the conflict between Georgia and Russia, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that one should not speak to Russia in the language of ultimatums. Would you explain to our readers what Georgian ultimatums the Russian minister is hinting at?”
“Georgia has never spoken to Russia in the language of ultimatums. I stress the word ‘never.’ Georgia’s secret services conducted an operation to halt subversive actions against its statehood and sovereignty. Any state that respects itself even a little would do the same. The law-enforcement agencies seized printed and video materials about the subversive activities of the Russian military on the territory of Georgia. These materials were submitted to the court, the head of the OSCE, and the Russian side. The Russian officers were detained on these grounds. If we had been speaking in the language of ultimatums, we would not have extradited these individuals after a court handed down the decision that those citizens be taken into custody for two months while an investigation was being conducted. But there are no ultimatums. We displayed goodwill and in compliance with international practice and standards, we handed those individuals over to Russia. It is now up to Moscow to decide what to do with those materials, including a criminal case against the Russian nationals.”
“Russia is now ready to break all relations with Georgia. Are you sure this pressure will not cause a split in Georgian society?”
“It may sound too categorical, but I do not think this will split our society. First, whatever the Russians may be saying, this pressure is not as sensitive and painful as it was 13 years ago. At that time, when our country was being torn apart by a civil war, Russia imposed a blockade and was creating conflicts on Georgia’s territory. And to top it all off, Georgia did not have any contacts with the outside world — in terms of either the media or transport and communications. Georgia was in the grip of a real blockade. It is a great exaggeration to say that highways have been cut off — they were cut off long ago. There has been no through railway service for a long time, too, because of problems in Abkhazia. Air links with Moscow have also been cut.
In fact this creates problems not just for Georgians but Russian citizens. But the main thing is that the outside civilized and democratic world is open for Georgia. So I do not think that this can have very serious consequences or even cause a split in Georgian society. “I am thinking about something else: with this ‘far-seeing’ policy Russia is pushing Georgia away. As a result of this policy, the Russian language is no longer spoken in Georgia. While many past Russian generations did their best to ensure that Russian culture and language gained a foothold in Georgia, the current generation of Russian politicians has done its best to wipe all this out. Georgia has never had any hostile feelings against anybody, not against any nation, let alone Russia. Never! And now, how must Georgians feel when they are being called bandits and terrorists? I agree that a certain individual who has committed a crime can be called a terrorist and bandit. But to call a whole nation bandits? And then to want this nation to be friendly?”
“What would you say to the fact that, except for Ukraine, Lithuania and Poland, none of Georgia’s neighboring countries have expressed concern over the Russian government’s latest actions towards ethnic Georgians in Russia?”
“I often recall what the chief rabbi of Israel said during his speech at the Opera House in honor of the 65th anniversary of Babyn Yar. ‘When lawlessness rules, when crimes are being committed, nobody must keep silent. For this is more terrible than a crime.’ I think that Georgia may be the first country that is being subjected today to this kind of lawlessness, but believe me, Georgia may also be the last one, if we raise our voices now and put everything and everybody in their proper place.”
“Do you believe the EU will say its mighty word and caution Russia against the ethnic cleansing of Georgian citizens, or will it give in to pragmatic considerations, such as getting cheap Russian energy resources?”
“I am aware of Europe’s major interests in Russia, including those connected with fuel supplies. But I think that in the past year Europe has seen how dangerous it is to be tied to just one source of energy resources. One must look ahead a little. Energy resources are not inexhaustible, especially in one region. Incidentally, we have shown a good example of diversification in fuel supplies. Last winter, when there were explosions on the Russian gas pipelines and power lines that carry gas and electricity from Russia to Georgia, we immediately switched over to Azerbaijani and Iranian gas. Europe should do the same. This does not at all mean that they should wreck their relations with Russia. Not at all! I am an optimist. At the peak of the conflict, Tbilisi hosted an EU ‘troika’-Georgia meeting that approved the action plan we have drawn up in the interests of good-neighborly relations. After following all the required procedures in Brussels and Tbilisi, this plan will be approved on Nov. 14, which will be a serious signal for a country like Georgia. Our small country is already attractive to Europe, which is proven by the investments that European countries are making in Georgia as well as the increasing flow of tourists visiting Georgia.”
“What is your vision of a likely resolution of this conflict?”
“Above all, the language of force and pressure must be set aside and a process of consultations at various levels must be launched. Strong-arm tactics will achieve nothing. In one month, or six, in a year or in five years’ time, we will have to do this in order to smooth out our relations. So why should one exacerbate the conflict to such a degree that in five years’ time it will be even more difficult to resolve it? Why should people, through the mass media, be whipped up to take a tough stand against Georgia? I think this is wrong. No goals either in domestic or foreign policy can justify the methods that Russia is applying today.
“In any event, relations will have to be restored. We are neighbors and are doomed, in the good sense of the word, to live shoulder to shoulder. Sooner or later we will have to build normal relations. The more logjams we pile up now, the more difficult it will be to normalize our relations. So I believe we must cool down as soon as possible. It is far simpler for the Russians to do this. In this situation I sometimes feel a lingering doubt as to who lives in the north — Russia or Georgia. We are always prepared to take a pragmatic approach and are taking well-considered steps. What Russia is doing now is nothing but emotions. I think even Georgians are unable to show this kind of emotion. So things have to cool down. One must weigh everything up and try to build a normal relationship with Georgia. I am aware that it is not easy. It is difficult! I am aware that somebody may bear some grudges. One must put everything aside and try, no matter how difficult it may be, to establish pragmatic relations with the neighboring state. I am not saying that we should be bosom buddies and hug and kiss one another. We must consider and respect each other’s interests for the benefit of generations to come. Otherwise, I would not want some politicians to experience the same thing as in the famous film Repentance. I do not want future generations to exhume and throw away the current politicians for what they cooked up with Georgia.”
“Are mediators needed to resolve this conflict?”
“I think mediators could be of use. But again, this depends on the goodwill of both sides. If mediators can contribute to the normalization of our relations, we will be grateful for this. If Russia does not want mediators, we are prepared for this development; we are prepared for a bilateral dialogue, but, allow me to stress, a dialogue between equal partners. Russia can, if it wants, speak with partners irrespective of their capabilities and size.”
“Xenophobia is being incited in Russia. Is it possible to suppress it?”
“I am utterly shocked. We have somehow gotten used to Russia’s ban on all Georgian imports. As a partner and neighbor, as a WTO member state, we think it is wrong, but that is their right. It is Russia’s right not to want Georgian products. But barring children from school on an ethnic basis, deporting and insulting people on this basis alone? I have never thought that this could be possible in Russia, in the Russia of Pushkin, Lermontov, and Dostoyevsky. I still think this will be stopped. Russian society, the Russian people will not accept this. Those things that are being done against Georgia will have no continuation. I am thoroughly convinced that Russian society will reject this.”
“Shouldn’t someone drop a hint to the Russian government that it can’t do this? I know that Georgia has appealed to the Council of Europe. There is also the UN Commission for Human Rights.”
“I think there will be some statements to this effect. Russia is a member of the Council of Europe and many other international organizations, including the Human Rights Commission. If Russia fails to halt these actions, it is bound to be censured. I am afraid that if this continues, very serious measures can be taken against Russia. This is not just a question of us, Georgians. This can be done against any representative of any country. I still hope that everything will stop in a couple of days.”
“What other support from official Kyiv, besides President Yushchenko’s statement, would Georgia like to have?”
“In the last while, there has been a constant round of phone calls to the embassy with words of support. Whenever I visit public places, strangers recognize me, shake my hand, and say: Hang on, we are with you! I think this is the main thing. The average person is aware that the truth is on our side and that we must endure. I believe this is the crux of the matter, and Georgia knows this.”
