Poland has been a member of the European Union for two years and NATO, since 1999. Naturally, our western neighbor has accumulated considerable experience in the sphere of integration, which may come in handy for Ukraine. How can this experience be useful for Ukraine? What does Warsaw think about Kyiv’s regional initiatives, particularly GUAM? Will Ukraine be able to join the NATO Membership Action Plan this year? These and other topics are broached in the following interview with Jacek KLUCZKOWSKI, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Poland to Ukraine.
Is Poland interested in participating in the Community of Democratic Choice and GUAM whose summit took place on May 22?
J.K.: Poland does not belong to GUAM or the Community of Democratic Choice. However, I can tell you that we support all the initiatives of our friend, Ukraine, which foster regional cooperation. We were practically represented at all the GUAM summits held in Kyiv. We understand that Ukraine is an exporter of stabilization and stability in the region, and we support this and will always be together with Ukraine. It should be noted, however, that we are members of other structures of regional cooperation in Central Europe.
Some opponents of Ukraine’s EU membership claim that the movement toward this association actually boils down to increasing prices to the European level. Poland has been with the EU for two years. What problems have you encountered in this period as a member of the EU?
J.K.: In our case it is not so much the two years of membership as it is a process of building a single market. We began this work in 1991. Here the question cannot be reduced only to negative aspects; it was a process of building a modern competitive economy. We suffered losses only in noncompetitive industries inherited from the communist regime; they were simply unable to restructure and reform.
Integration is first and foremost an economic process and opening of the EU market that comprises almost 500 million consumers for our producers. At the same time we had to open our own market. We realized — not two years ago but even earlier — that a modern economic policy means the ability to be present and to sell your goods in many countries. Indeed, this may result in price increases. Our farmers were in a situation where prices were actually frozen for 10 years. Now our farmers have an opportunity to sell their goods on the European market and at higher prices. This was very good news for Polish farmers. Whereas before, our countryside was skeptical of the EU, now it firmly supports the European direction. Generally speaking, our inflation rate is one of the lowest in the European Union.
What other advantages of EU membership have the Poles experienced?
J.K.: The European Union is not an organization where gifts are handed out. Here everything depends on your own resources. The main thing is that you can be really competitive.
If you can be a competitive farmer, businessman, firm, or company, you can count on success and the EU will help you. We have assistance programs for small and medium businesses, and investment projects. In addition, there are export relief programs. We also have a program aimed at helping problematic economic sectors, infrastructural programs, specifically for building roads, highways, subways, and airports. There is a program to support the agrarian sector — and this support is directly aimed at farmers. Almost 50 percent of the EU budget goes to supporting this sector in member countries. Poland has been making increasing use of these funds with every passing year.
Can the Polish formula, “European quality, Polish prices, and Czech VAT,” be applied in Ukraine? Western experts see in this three-part formula the success of Polish business.
J.K.: I don’t fully understand this formula. Polish quality is on a very high level. As for the Czech VAT, it is two times higher than the Ukrainian one, although there are three times fewer people there. Western European quality can vary. European countries are considering the possibility of transferring their plants to other countries, primarily to new EU members. Does this formula have anything to do with Ukraine? I think the Ukrainian economy should be brought to the level that exists in at least the new member countries of the European community. Labor productivity must be increased. These are objective indices that should be implemented. It is true that Europe is an example that should be emulated in order to analyze one’s own achievements and drawbacks. We have always used this approach.
Poland was one of the initiators of creating the so-called energy NATO. Why wasn’t this idea supported by leading European countries, such as Germany and France?
J.K.: The energy NATO idea is very interesting. Considering the conduct of the main energy suppliers toward their consumers, it is necessary to coordinate one’s policy in the sphere of energy security. The EU is discussing our project along with the Green Book on cooperation in the energy sphere. The EU still doesn’t have a uniform energy policy. The Green Book is only the first step in this direction. I am not sure that the EU countries will agree on a uniform energy policy without adopting a joint foreign policy.
The European Constitution envisages a higher degree of integration in the sphere of international politics. So far the level of this integration is rather low. The energy policy is the main component of foreign affairs and security policies. The European Union still hasn’t determined the difference between the tasks of the state and those of the Union. Most countries, including Poland, are in favor of the idea of rather strong national governments, so as to give away less on the Union level. Energy policy is a very complicated task, and countries are not prepared to sacrifice their energy policies and security. Every country is conducting its own policy, so establishing a single organization with the goal of providing supplies and assistance in this domain is a markedly difficult task. However, we are glad that we raised the matter and went much further than experts’ deliberations. Our proposal is not on the agenda, but I think there will be an opportunity to return to it after solving the problems linked to the Green Book.
Can Ukraine expect to join the NATO Membership Action Plan this fall and become a member in 2008?
J.K.: I can tell you that most NATO countries are in favor of closer cooperation with Ukraine and eventually allowing your country to become a member. This majority did not exist before 2004. At the time the Kuchma-Yanukovych regime attempted to switch to the NATO Membership Plan but was rejected. I understand that Ukraine must determine its priority tasks and decide how it wants to achieve this membership, and when. I would like to point out that Ukraine’s NATO membership appears unlikely without the unity of the main political parties and public support.
Your country has much experience in setting up coalition governments. What are the guarantees of a coalition government — its program, objectives, or team members?
J.K.: Everything. Coalition is not absolute unity but an alliance created in order to reach certain goals. The personal aspect is also important. I don’t think that there is a recipe that could be offered to Ukraine. After all, we have different systems even after the constitutional reform in Ukraine. In Poland, the president plays a rather active role in the political process, replacing candidates for ministerial posts. Our political parties can really influence the coalition-making process, but they must support the government afterward. And the prime minister is vested with fundamental powers.
Does Poland favor an Orange coalition?
J.K.: You know the answer. Poland is prepared to cooperate with any government, any coalition. It is true that we sided with the majority of the Ukrainian people when they were struggling to assert their right to choose European rather than Eurasian standards in 2004. Yes, we are for a coalition made up of parties that support this choice. We believe that this potential and energy can still work for the benefit of Ukraine. We want this to happen.
For some Polish businessmen Yulia Tymoshenko prime ministership is connected to the negative feelings that arose after the closing of the free economic zones. What does Warsaw think about the return of this politician to her former post?
J.K.: I don’t think that Polish businessmen are associating this with Yulia Tymoshenko. The decision to close down the free economic zones was not aimed particularly against Polish business whose investments comprised two percent of the total amount at the time. Some experts support this decision, saying it was right for Ukraine. By the way, we also shut down free economic zones when we joined the EU, but all this was done according to the law and using instruments of compensation.
Prime Minister Yuriy Yekhanurov said the Ukrainian government would make up for Polish businessmen’s losses. Has any compensation been made?
J.K.: Ukraine is a democratic country, and only the Verkhovna Rada can introduce changes in your legislation. I am sure that Yuriy Yekhanurov, who has done much to improve Ukraine’s investment climate, will help the new Ukrainian parliament pass the compensation bill — the document is ready.
Can we regard the recent unveiling of a memorial commemorating Ukrainians who died in Poland, which was attended by our presidents, as proof that our nations have finally achieved reconciliation?
J.K.: No, this process will continue. You know that 1.5 million Poles lived in Ukraine until 1944; that Poles made up more than one half of Lviv’s population in 1939. The same is true of the Ukrainian side. In 1944-45 the entire Ukrainian minority — 400,000 people — was deported from the Kholm and Subcarpathian regions to Ukraine. Those of them who are still alive remember this. Some of them want reconciliation but others continue to reflect on the injustice inflicted on them; they remember all these difficult questions. I believe that we should talk about history. Where there are graves, there must be crosses, so Poles can visit Ukraine and Ukrainians can visit Poland to pray at these graves. Much has to be done to accomplish this. I do not consider this process complete.
Will the creation of the Institute of National Memory in Ukraine, proclaimed by the current government, help solve this problem?
J.K.: Such an institute exists in Poland and it is doing its work. We must tidy up such memorial sites on our territory first and then abroad. Solving this problem cannot be restricted to establishing an institute or agency. We must work with the younger generation. We must have a youth cooperation program like the one Poland has with Germany.
