Taras Hunczak, history professor at Rutgers University has long been a conspicuous figure among the learned historical circles of millions of ethnic Ukrainians constituting our diaspora and in his historical homeland, primarily owing to his publicist writings (he is also among the regular contributors to the Den’/The Day and comprehensive historical works. While one can agree with all the views upheld by the esteemed professor, he certainly deserves all possible praise for taking such keen interest in what we all hope will be a happy future of the Ukrainian people; and for his conspicuously unconventional approach to Ukrainian history. On September 18, Prof. Hunczak visited the Den’ and kindly agreed to share his view on various aspects of Ukrainian historical present realities.
Prof. Hunczak: Looking back at our past, we could say that we Ukrainians were for Russia about the same as the Greeks were to Rome, because we did uphold education and culture in the empire.
A vivid analogy, but it’s also true that we lost all our political strength.
Yes, we lost that strength and culture. I delicately broached the subject in my essay “History, an Inexhaustible Well.” In the seventeenth century, Ukrainians had an education level superior to that of the Muscovites. Suffice it to recall those regimental schools, which. matched very similar institution in Germany and France at the turn of the seventeenth century.
Indeed, and there is an eloquent example from earlier history: Anna, daughter of Prince Yaroslav the Wise, who became queen of France.
Precisely. She taught the French king to sign documents rather than draw a cross. Why am I such a “crazy” Ukrainian? Because I am proud of our ancestors.
Also, because you have the knowledge. If all Ukrainians had more knowledge there would be more of them feeling such pride. Talking of metropolitan-colonial relationships, what model of modern Russian-Ukrainian relations do you visualize? Some believe it should be like the US-Canadian one.
That won’t be easy.
But, at a minimum, they are of good will. We say it could be something like British-US relationships. Do the Russians understand the analogy? Our [Russian] neighbor tends to remember the “closing paragraph” of history, but a lot happened before it. Ukraine became a constant donor of the Russian Empire, supplying enlighteners (we have broached the subject on more than one occasion, including Klara Gudzyk’s features). Ukraine also supplied cannon fodder, under the tsarist and Soviet empires; Ukrainians occupied important posts under both the Romanovs and the Soviets. We must understand and remember this. How are we to regain that state-building strength?
I think that Ukraine should be Russia’s reliable ally and good neighbor. This would be perfectly normal. The book Russian Imperialism from Ivan the Great to the Revolution (American View on History) reads that Russia – rather, Muscovy (before 1721) spread at a rate of 50 sq. miles a day for 400 years. Incidentally, this book should be translated even for the Russians’ good. What has the Russian people got to with all that? They were also victims of serfdom.
It’s one of the imperial paradoxes. The people never prospered from those territorial gains.
Absolutely not. Only the rich, just like those we now call oligarchs.
Unlike the British who have long had the middle class.
Yes, but there is a bit of a difference. The British Empire was a “empire at home.” They already had restrictions after 1688 and that Glorious Revolution. There was a limit past which even the king could not step. Orikhovsky, a medieval Ukrainian historian, advised the Polish king, “You rule us not because you come from such a celebrated and noble dynasty; you rule us because we allow you to do so.” 120 years later, the noted English philosopher John Locke would echo him, saying that the government rules by the consent of its subjects. But our thinker was the first to come up with the idea!
Prof. Hunczak, is it really true that Ukraine’s glory is in the past, that this nation is so exhausted it cannot digest it? What do you think the ideal is all about?
I’m an optimist. They say in America that tomorrow will be another day. Nothing will end after I’m gone. French King Louis XV said, Apres nous le deluge. And in Ukraine some people lack consideration in treating the social process here. I visited Ukraine in 1989 and stayed almost three years. I took part in the first Rukh congress and taught at Ukrainian institutions of higher education for two years. Yes, Ukraine is exhausted, but there is a reserve of energy. This energy ought to be activated by the government.
Those in power and opposition are responsible for what is happening in society. Wouldn’t you say that both are a mirror reflection of each other?
In America, they reprinted my article “A Prophet in not Heard in his Own Country” (carried by The Day and then included in the book Ukraine Incognita - Ed.). It caused quite some reverberation. Psychologically, it looks as though people now live by the principle of steal-or-die. But cheating one’s neighbor de facto becomes an act of self-deception, it’s like cheating one’s own children. It leaves no prospects for a happier future whatever.
Before having their own nation state, our citizens used to leave Ukraine in search of a living. Now that they have one, there over six million Ukrainians working abroad. How would you explain this? We want to discuss history to use historical knowledge to detect some patterns and trends. One must write about facts, but the overall basis of historical knowledge helps one understand in principle what is happening and how it can influence social consciousness. Here there has been no scholarly assessment so far.
I come from a village family, my father worked all his life. My brother was a member of the OUN when the Germans came. I became a courier at about 11. It wasn’t those “bourgeois nationalists” fighting [the Soviets] back in the 1930s-50s, but villages like ours. What did they fight for? For their homes, that’s all. They were so dedicated to Ukraine that at one point some of the OUN leadership started talking about man’s exploitation. In other words, that leadership also turned out to be the same type of nomenklatura. On May 1, 1986, Volodymyr Shcherbytsky made our children march [on Khreshchatyk under the clouds of Chornobyl. An aristocrat would have sent them to the Crimea. So where are we headed? I am a citizen of another country. They ask who would you like to be, what praise would you like to have. None whatsoever. In Ukraine, I’m an honorary doctor of sciences, professor emeritus, meritorious worker of science, culture, and technology. I’d rather be an honorary citizen, because I secretly cherish the idea. You can’t even imagine the hard times we lived in. But my parents had something very precious, a sense of national dignity which they would never disown.
I visit St. Sophia’s museum and they speak Russian to me. I say sorry, I don’t know this language, I’m from America. Well, it’s not true, I know Russian, I studied the language. I speak Russian in Russia, but Ukrainian is the official language of this country. And I consider it as such. My wife and I go to a museum and she says why do they speak a different language (she doesn’t understand Russian, it’s true, although she was born on Andriyivsky uzviz; she was one year old when she left with her parents). We visited the Pecherska Lavra and again we heard only Russian. Why? These are institutions controlled by the state.
You sound as if you were completely unfamiliar with our realities. This process has been underway for centuries. If one dwells on St. Sophia and on our spiritual and cultural standard, it will turn out a long soliloquy. Number one. No one really cares about St. Sophia being for the Ukrainian people. Number two. Bureaucratic indifference. Big money wants to live next to St. Sophia and the state becomes helpless; the corrupt regime doesn’t lift a finger. This means that it can do anything except what this society actually needs. Number three. Those abusing their Christian virtues look even more cynical than those trying to build fitness centers on historical religious premises. Larysa Skoryk told The Day’s round table that Viktor Yushchenko national democratic headquarters is on St. Sophia’s grounds. Perhaps he intended this as a guarantee that they are keeping pace with the Lord and are free to go any which way. Is this moral? Without doubt this place must not be used for political purposes. As it is, the place is used by both politicians and businesspeople. The same is true of the Lavra where every square inch is commercialized.
I was leaving for America and some officials told me there was archaeological dig being done at St. Sophia’s. But I saw a bulldozer at work. I asked are you trying to defend some ideas? It’s where Yaroslav the Wise’s daughters played and whence they walked to the Yaroslaviv Val. What are construction workers doing here? I knew it was just the beginning. I phoned them. Too bad I never called you at the editorial office. My mistake.
We were told at St. Sophia’s that they were “monitoring cracks in the walls.” But Larysa Skoryk wasn’t the only one to sound the alarm. In that story she said all she had to say about our patriots and national democrats. They’ll never forgive her. But with her it was nothing personal, of course.
Well, that’s our life and our history.
Far from all in Ukraine seem to have learned its lessons. How do you see your participation in that vitally important process of reviving our national dignity and historical memory? Please say a few words about your plans.
I want to do some digging in the archives and finish my book, Ukraine in the Twentieth Century. The first volume, Ukraine of the First Half of the Twentieth Century is in print, its 50,000 copies all sold. Also, I’d like to transfer my private archives to Ukraine. I have 250,000 documents originating from all Western archives. I spent 30 years visiting them and found things I can’t even tell you about. An academician friend of mine said I’d better postpone this transfer because the situation in Ukraine isn’t right. But you in Ukraine have to work out your own views on history and modern realities. I read the Den’ every day, at 4 p.m., on the Internet.
Paraphrasing the title of your article in Ukraine Incognita , why do you think Shevchenko’s voice isn’t heard in today’s Ukraine?
I lived in Ukraine for two years, teaching at the Kyiv Polytechnic Institute and Shevchenko University. You know what I noticed? They mostly quote Shevchenko’s line about that blind pauper no one knows or cares about. And no one bothers to find out how the poet actually felt.
What about his “Dug-up Grave?”
Yes, “Dug-up Grave.” Are we to assume that he didn’t know what he was talking about? That wasn’t mythology as described by some. Some scholars might want to see Shevchenko as a mythmaker, but he wasn’t. He saw life for what it was, he was keenly aware of it. It’s not often that one can generalize one’s actual experiences. He could and he did, he was able to perceive them in a most subtle way. Yet your Shevchenko jubilees are dominated by very fine lyrics. I’m very fond of lyrics. You know, you can’t achieve anything creatively significant without love. Hatred begets only unwelcome things. Shevchenko created his works with love and affectionately asked, “What are you like, my people?” As Mrs. Ivshyna put it, we probably still don’t know where we live.
Indeed, we have a selection of articles in our book divided into chapters. Talking of Shevchenko, he writes in his Kholodny Yar [Cold Ravine]: “Although the ravine is still there, Not a footpath is left. It is as although no one has set foot there.” The book starts with Olha Herasimyuk’s “Every Ukrainian Must Visit Chyhyryn at Least Once.” These words must be accompanied by deeds. Every child must be taken to Shevchenko’s grave atop that hill in Kaniv, to Kyrylivka, Trakhtemyriv, and Chyhyryn. Ukrainians must know where to visit first to understand their belonging to this nation. And then we say that each of those in high office should pass a test in Ukrainian and Ukrainian history. Otherwise one has no right to occupy an important post or claim a seat in parliament. He must sit down and study textbooks. They were not taught real Ukrainian history as students, so their ideas on the subject are terribly muddled. In this sense one must give Russian Ambassador Viktor Chernomyrdin credit; he visited our editorial office and was immediately interested in our column “Ukraine Incognita.” He asked for copies of all the materials included in it. The Russian Embassy bought several copies as soon as the book of the same title appeared in print. Russia is probably interested in our final realization of our national identity, occupying a normal niche and becoming a normal neighbor with proper self-respect. We cannot blame today’s Russians for what happened in the past, at Baturyn. Likewise they cannot blame us for Konotop.
It’s part of our past. We must know why things happened the way they did, what lessons we have learned, and where we stand now. An American saying has it that high fences make good neighbors. Anyone can step over our fence.
Do you think that this society needs books like Ukraine Incognita?
As a scholar, I can tell you that history cannot be assessed relying only on documents. The history of an individual and society should be perceived through sentiments experienced by man day by day. What happened yesterday is history. Something must remain. As for the book, it’s needed. You could publish it every year, for there are plenty of topical issues.
In fact, we plan to do just that.
A book like Ukraine Incognita forms one’s world view. Besides, if it’s written convincingly, the reader will take a closer look at himself, asking himself who he is. Congratulations! Before flying to Ukraine, I read the Den’ and learned about your sixth anniversary and the book. I thought thank God. It’s a good beginning, except that the print run should be larger.
We invite you to contribute to the next volume; we’ll write features, having in mind that the next book of the Den’ Library series will be published in September 2003.
I’ll certainly write something. Thanks for your time and I’m glad to have learned more about you.
Here is a copy of the book. It’s a present and it’s signed, “To Taras Hunczak, a man that has done so much for Ukraine. Thanks for your cooperation.”
