Pechersk District Court’s hearing of the Tymoshenko gas case ended. Justice Rodion Kirieiev announced the final ruling. As a number of politicians and experts had expected the ex-prime minister of Ukraine received seven years, along with damages worth 1.516 billion hryvnias Naftohaz Ukrainy lawyers claim she has inflicted on this company. Yulia Tymoshenko isn’t perfect, just as no mortal is (including all those currently in power). She has her sins to repent, but all of us are witness to Europe’s painful reaction to this [political] trial. We even hear threats that, should there be a term in prison, Ukraine would have no association and free trade area. Add here the ongoing complicated talks on gas supplies from Russia. How is the current Ukrainian regime going to resolve this situation? More on this, European values, dotted I’s and crossed T’s, 2+1 formula [explained further on. – Ed.], land reform, etc., in the following interview with Oleksandr YEFREMOV, head of the Verkhovna Rada’s Party of Regions faction.
“EVERYTHING SEEMS PROGRAMMED, EVERYONE SEEMS TO KNOW THE COURT RULING IN ADVANCE”
“If we let them bully us, we’ll never have a free [nation-] state. I recently visited Strasbourg where I met with colleagues from the European Parliament. I regret to say that I asked them questions they couldn’t answer. I’m against passing bills written to suit a given political situation, let alone a given [political] figure. Should the clauses condemning Tymoshenko be deleted from this decriminalization bill – so she could be released from custody – this would mean that our laws exist for the man in the street, not for those ‘upstairs.’ Let us consider several examples. An ex-prime minister of Iceland is under trial on charges of unprofessional performance. Serbia’s ex-prime minister was apprehended in Austria and charged with having allegedly accepted a bribe five or six years ago. [Here in Ukraine] we’re trying to build a genuine democracy, and so our president can’t abide by instructions from Europe and offer recommendations to any neighboring countries, because this would mean acting contrary to our Constitution.”
Unlike the Tymoshenko trial, the examples you’ve just cited aren’t subject to European criticism.
“I was told by European politicians that they knew what Tymoshenko was worth; that Ukraine’s image was created in the course of the Orange Revolution; that this image is still alive in the European electorates’ minds. Therefore, willy-nilly, European politicians are defending their voters’ interests. They say so.”
Interestingly, criminal prosecution in Ukraine is currently aimed mostly at former administration officials, former opposition members.
“What makes you think so? The ex-Crimean Speaker, Anatolii Hrytsenko, is in a difficult situation – and he is a member of our party. There is also the example of Vasyl Volha and those of other people holding important posts. Remember what happened in the United States when Bush, Jr. ran for another term? It took them a month to count the ballots. In the end he won with several thousand votes. Now try to picture a situation with their opposition (then led by Al Gore) sending people abroad to seek support, telling everybody how bad Bush, Jr. was. Unconceivable. In Ukraine, this is standard practice. I keep receiving data about our opposition’s activities, where its people travel and with whom they meet in Europe on a political basis.”
Apart from Europe, you have enough criticism within Ukraine. Leonid Kravchuk is quoted as saying that making Yulia Tymoshenko stand trial on charges of gas accords would logically mean bringing to justice all of Ukraine’s previous presidents and prime ministers over the past 20 years.
“Somehow everything seems programmed, everyone seems to know the court ruling in advance. I, for one, have no idea what will happen next. Nor does Kravchuk. Any statements preceding the court ruling are inadmissible because they may influence the court. Judges are human, after all. If they see a change ‘upstairs,’ they’re bound to make their own conclusions. As regards the issue you’ve just raised, I won’t mention the losses this state has sustained, but I will mention the Law of Ukraine ‘On Internal Laws of Ukraine.’ It envisages certain procedures when making international treaties/ agreements. Before any such instrument is signed, there has to be a sitting of the Cabinet of Ministers [of Ukraine], to determine the authority of the officials who will sign it. In other words, certain protocol arrangements must be made as per Cabinet resolution. From what I know, Tymoshenko used fake protocol arrangements when signing the gas accords with Russia in 2009. I think this is fraud.
“In 2004, they took over political power in a country that was supposed to pay a guaranteed price of 57 dollars per 1,000 m3 of gas from Russia until 2012. They decided this was a bad arrangement, so there was a visit to Moscow and the price rose to 176 dollars. In other words, they made Ukraine pay an extra 120 dollars for every 1,000 cubic meters of gas. Later, they decided this arrangement wasn’t good enough, considering the problem with gas supplies to Europe. In the end, another price was set that currently allows [Russia] to demand [from Ukraine] the same price as that being paid by Germany. When they tell us in Moscow that Ukraine’s gas prices are the same as those in Germany, I want to ask them where Germany and Ukraine are located. We keep telling the Russian side that we want no preferential clauses under the circumstances, but that they should realize that the price they want is unreasonable. This is number one. Number two is that the economy factor is always there. Should Ukraine fail to pay this price, it would lose the 37.5 m3 of regularly consumed gas supplies from Russia. This would also spell losses for Russia. Before signing the 2009 gas accords, Ukraine had arguments to offer to establish a dialog, but then, for reasons still to be figured out, such accords were signed effective until 2019 – considering that not all of the clauses were legally correct – whereby Ukraine will have to pay up extra 100 dollars per 1,000 m3 at the least. Therefore, I say let the court make its ruling.”
How does the Ukrainian government plan to settle this issue?
“We keep in touch with European politicians, explaining what is actually happening in Ukraine, telling them we can’t act contrary to the Constitution and other laws of Ukraine. We find ways of achieving mutual understanding.”
PARTY OF REGIONS OPENING REPRESENTATION IN BRUSSELS
The Warsaw summit ended without saying anything about the completion of the Ukraine-EU FTA project. Does this mean that the signing of the agreement has been postponed? Any clauses remaining to be agreed upon?
“I attended a sitting of the European Parliament’s International Committee. They set the task of completing all formalities to sign an agreement with Ukraine. This is a very important instrument to Europeans. They want all pertinent documents to be signed before the end of the year. The Ukrainian side is also making every effort (something that has never been done over the past [several] years). We’re trying to bring our national legislation into conformity with the European laws. I think that in legal terms Ukraine will be ready to consider at least two documents before the end of the year, the first one dealing with association, and the second one with free trade area. I keep fingers crossed, hoping the third one, regarding liberalized EU-Ukraine visa procedures, will be ready, as well.”
How would you explain European values?
“To me, this means cultured exchanges, in the first place and in every aspect. I mean cultured conduct, communications, political culture. I think many in Ukraine consider it important that the European choice opens up vast horizons in terms of economic progress. First, the European market spells over 16 trillion dollars. This is the world’s largest market. It is our task to access it while retaining Ukraine’s positions on the other markets. Some believe that Ukraine moving in the European direction means moving in [the wrong] direction, and that this gives cause for confrontation with another country. Absolutely untrue. Losing the Russian market would make no sense to Ukraine. We will certainly keep moving in that direction. There is also the huge Chinese market. They are willing to cooperate with us. The same is true of the Turkish market. Sir Winston Churchill said you must start with the premise that you have no permanent friends, no permanent enemies, just permanent interests. We must treat our foreign colleagues in a polite and respectful manner, and [encourage them to take part in] discussions. Those planning to make us lose some of our sovereignty or part with some of our economic advantages should think twice. We will resolutely defend our positions.”
THOSE IN POWER SOMETIMES MISBEHAVE
Izvestia recently carried Vladimir Putin’s article, actually his campaign program, that makes clear his objective of establishing a Eurasian Union. Considering Ukraine’s refusal to join the Eurasian Economic Community, is there an alternative Ukraine can offer?
“Charles de Gaulle stated once: ‘Oui, c’est l’Europe, depuis l’Atlantique jusqu’a l’Oural, c’est toute l’Europe, qui decidera du destin du monde.’ (Yes, it is Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals, it is the whole of Europe that will decide the fate of the world.) He thought the only option was Great China stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Europe must determine its development vector during the globalization process. Despite its many problems – temporarily, I’m sure – the EU faces a choice. Europe-Russia current intensive contacts are proof that cooperation isn’t off [Russia’s] agenda. In fact, Vladimir Putin stresses in his newspaper article that developing the Eurasian space would by no means contradict our European vector. After all, Russia currently sets the political trend in this region of the world, something other countries have to reckon with. Therefore, we must treat the world political process pragmatically, very much so, and, above all, we must take part in it.”
Why do you think Putin doesn’t mention Ukraine in his newspaper article?
“Because he heard Viktor Yanukovych state that Ukraine doesn’t see itself as a member of the [CIS] Customs Union at the moment (especially after all the I’s were dotted and T’s crossed during the trilateral meeting in Moscow).”
In his inaugural address Viktor Yanukovych said his administration would combat “wild capitalism” and its consequences on all levels. How would you assess the effectiveness of this particular project?
“Some believe that those in power are somewhere high above while the man in the street remains where he belongs – perhaps because some of those in power misbehave, now and then. You must’ve watched our president’s response to a number of decisions made by separate ministries, also to the Cabinet as a whole. Viktor Yanukovych doesn’t agree with every decision he is offered.
“You ask how well our administration can protect the national interests of Ukraine. One of the biggest doubts in this sense was when Yanukovych ran for president, when many predicted Yanukovych would become a Russia-minded president of Ukraine. Even then I calmly told them: ‘You don’t know Yanukovych well enough; he will make a true president of Ukraine.’ I knew this because he was governor of Donbas oblast while I was governor of Luhansk oblast. I watched him fight [the higher-ranking bureaucrats] to protect the interests of his oblast. This trait never changes, so I’m sure he will protect Ukraine’s national interest the same way.”
Rampant corruption is Ukraine’s worst evil. Where do you think it comes from?
“Corruption can be overcome only by exposing and destroying its roots. The larger the government’s presence in business, the higher the corruption level. This is number one. Second, there must be political will. Third, there must be an accommodating [domestic] political situation. As a rule, combating corruption on the highest level demands a great deal of willpower from the man at the top [i.e., head of state. – Ed.]. When I was governor, I was visited by well-to-do people who made their proposals. I had to order them out of my office. Then I was told: ‘We’ll pay much less in Kyiv and you’ll be fired.’ They had a point there.”
THE STATE SHOWS GOOD PROGRESS USING 2+1 FORMULA
Some experts predict that the 2012 elections will be a test of strength for the Party of Regions. Aren’t you worried about the outcome?
“We aren’t happy about having solve a number of problems that will surely cause public outcries. I’m afraid we won’t cope with this task. If we fail, I can’t see another political force capable of solving these problems. Today, there are many people who can make well-worded speeches, yet none of them has the slightest idea of the problems he/she will have to cope with as prime minister and/or president of Ukraine. Let’s take a closer look at recent history. Viktor Yanukovych became prime minister in 2003 and there was a sharp increase in economic growth. In 2005, a different administration came to power and there was a noticeable economy decline. Yushchenko, aware of the situation going from worst to critical, turned to Yanukovych. As a result, Ukraine’s economy was back on an upward curve in 2007-08. Tymoshenko was appointed as prime minister in 2009, and the economy growth rate started on a downward curve. Today, we are doomed to success. We have to do our utmost to make the people aware of the results of our reforms next year. In fact, the domestic situation with our [party] ratings isn’t as bad as meets the eye. We’re still in the lead, but this isn’t enough for our party to win the next campaign. Yet this is our number one objective in 2012.”
There is a merger of the ruling political forces. Serhii Tihipko’s Strong Ukraine has joined the Party of Regions and Lytvyn’s People’s Party is negotiating merger terms and conditions. How would you comment on this expansion?
“Strong Ukraine can join the Party of Regions only if so resolved by a SU convention. At the moment, there are arrangements between Azarov and Tihipko, whereby Tihipko will join the Party of Regions. The man sees more prospects for implementing his ambitions as a member of our party. Why would our state need this? Political experience shows that a state can develop normally where and when the so-called 2+1 formula is effective (with two major political parties in a power play plus a number of smaller parties that, spotting the major players’ mistakes, exploit them to convince some of their electorate to side with them, thus taking part in the formation of official policy; as a rule, this secures domestic political stability). In other words, this isn’t a political duel but a fight for votes.”
Which political force would identify as number-two in Ukraine?
“I can’t see any, perhaps it’s in the making. In terms of potential and structure, there are none to match the Party of Regions. At present, there is some infighting, with our own mistakes acting against us. Forget about any opponent efforts. I was often told that Tymoshenko would be a strong opposition figure. Well, if you fail as a member of the incumbent government, you will never make a strong opposition figure. Being in opposition is far more difficult. When in opposition, Yanukovych presided over weekly sittings of the opposition cabinet, hearing proposals aimed at improving Ukraine’s economic status. Have you ever seen this opposition cabinet doing the same over the past year and one half?”
Opposition proposes and formally submits alternative bills to the Ukrainian Parliament, but the majority rejects all of them.
“Parliament has to work on each bill before passing it. A bill written on Monday can’t be adopted on Wednesday by the [pertinent Verkhovna Rada’s] committee – this has often been the case of late, although this is precisely what the opposition requires – and then put to the vote in parliament.”
Who do you the Party of Regions is sure not to side with?
“Only a young politician can say he will never side with this or that one. If a merger serves national interests, the political forces concerned – even ones ideologically cardinally opposed to each other – will find it in themselves to do this merger. Germany is a good example, I mean when Angela Merkel came to power. It’s true that the Party of Regions is holding consultations concerning the joining of other political forces. However, what’s happening is just consultations. No specific decisions have been made.”
Suppose there is a merger between the Party of Regions and other political forces. How would this affect the government’s economic policy? Serhii Tihipko supports the idea of cuts on social benefits and preferences. Wouldn’t this trigger off a conflict within your team, considering that various team members have varying views on the notion of social standard?
“Lowering social standard in a poverty-stricken country sounds stupid. We can’t tell the people, with most of them living in misery, that we are going to make them even more miserable. This stand in the matter is taken by our party and by our president. In this sense, Serhii Tihipko is a liberal politician. He supports the shock therapy concept, something European countries have been through. Today, we must think differently, seeking ways to rebuild our economy and replenish the central budget, so we can raise our social standard. Tihipko has his ideas, but this doesn’t mean that our party shares them.”
The Afghani picketing the Verkhovna Rada, protesting against cuts on social [security] benefits demonstrated that the man in the street is against such social limitations. How do you think this situation can be resolved?
“One of the Cabinet members (maybe one of the Fund people) ordered the Pension Fund to recalculate the individual retirement bank accounts. This resulted in rallies and pickets. I can tell you officially that there will be cuts on any social [security] benefits. In fact, we’re planning to increase social payments next year.”
In Ukraine, whenever it comes to making cuts on social security benefits, the man in the street turns out exposed to them in the first place. How about starting with ranking bureaucrats, people on the Presidential Administration’s payroll, along with the ministries?
“The Standing Orders Committee of the Verkhovna Rada has been instructed to take stock of such benefits being enjoyed by the MPs, so we can single out ones that simply don’t work, so we can cancel them. I, for one, have been living in a hotel room for the past five years. No one has given me an apartment, although I’m entitled to one under the law. There are various kinds of MPs; some never use the benefits due them – they even don’t bother to receive their monthly pay – while others live only by their monthly pay.”
THAT STATE WAS RUINED WITHOUT BLOODSHED, GOD BE PRAISED
Thomas Markert, Secretary of the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, believes that a mixed electoral system is best for Ukraine. In fact, Viktor Yanukovych promised open lists of candidate members of parliament in one of his presidential campaign speeches. He hasn’t kept this promise. Why?
“This mixed system is practiced across the world, particularly in Europe. What are such open lists all about? This boils down to federalizing a given country. Whether this is good or bad is a disputable matter. Will or won’t we keep our promises? After we analyzed the political situation at the Verkhovna Rada, we saw that our parliament could pass bills using only this mixed vote pattern. This was a political compromise. In fact, we’re keeping our promises, with one half of our candidates elected in the electoral districts and the other one using party lists. I believe that party lists can’t be discarded. If we can have this bill passed by parliament this month, we’ll have a document one year prior to the elections, for the first time [in the history of independent Ukraine], and it will serve as an example for all political forces, showing them how to get prepared for an election campaign.”
In terms of political culture, how much do you think our politicians are under the influence of the good old Soviet way of thinking?
“We are totally different. Our children have a good education, including education received in Europe. Europeans don’t have to visit Ukraine to teach us elementary things. If I need something, I can fly to Cambridge (I’ve done so on more than one occasion), pay for a ten-day attendance, listen to lectures, and receive answers to my pressing questions. Lots of my colleagues follow suit. Therefore, the Soviet way of thinking isn’t a problem for us. This is number one. Second, not all done previously was bad. For example, there was free and good grade school and post-secondary education. Therefore, one shouldn’t discard all one’s past. At one time Soviet power was established and brought with it all kinds of ailments. They dumped everything gained under the Russian tsars. Then they started building [a new system]. It took the [Soviet] state 50 years to form a new elite because the previous one (including that of Ukraine) had been annihilated. Finally, the Soviet empire fell apart, God be praised, without bloodshed and without destroying the existing elite.”
The Verkhovna Rada turned down the land market bill and ordered it revised, in view of many disputable clauses. Three months are left before the end of the year. Do you think a compromise can be achieved in the land issue? Will the land market open in 2012?
“Land reform is the most important issue in Ukraine, so our president is in no hurry to make a decision, having held dozens of conferences on the matter. I believe you have to think twice, then think again before you make up your mind. Most debates focus on the size of the plot to be allowed to be owned by one person. There are three options. Some propose 2,100 hectares; others propose between 50 and 100 ha (as they do in France); still others insist on making all this land government property, so the government will sell land lease certificates (the way this is done in Great Britain). If this bill is passed this year, the moratorium will be lifted; otherwise the moratorium will remain effective. The land issue cannot remain unresolved because there is ‘quiet’ land privatization underway. Most believe that only Ukrainian nationals can own land in this country.”
