Those who have known him a long time often recall (proudly or venomously): “I knew him when he was still...” perhaps as a kind of compensation. The “Internationale” has a line, “We have been naught, we shall be all.” In today’s Ukraine many of those with the naught status have translated this line into life, becoming all, doing so before our very eyes. Well, maybe not all but just about. Some can seethe with rage, others can take a closer look to see how much our homemade oligarchs have changed and what they think of all those changes in our society. This time The Day offers an interview with Hryhory SURKIS, prominent businessman, politician, and honorary president of the Dynamo Soccer Club.
The Day: Are you interested in early elections?
H.S.: Of course, I wouldn’t want that to happen. No one will doubt for a moment that neither I as an member of Parliament, nor the United Social Democrats, the party which I am honored to be a member of, would be able to establish a truly effective parliamentary majority if we had such early elections in mind. Just as no one doubts, I hope, that we are very serious about the parliamentary majority.
The Day: Those criticizing the majority insist that it was needed primarily by certain clans, so they could extend their control to the legislative field in order to use the government to lobby their interests and get superprofits, something that until recently could be achieved only in the shadow economy. Any comment?
H.S.: I can tell you that the biggest clan that has existed at the Verkhovna Rada for the past several years is the Left wing. It is a clan bound by rigid totalitarian ideology, whereby the slightest deviation is regarded as treason. And it has always had the golden share when voting on any measure. Thus I apply the notion of clan primarily to our Left opponents. Are we pushing one clan in to push out the other? I wouldn’t say so. The majority is united by the determination to eliminate a clan “bound by a single chain.” Proof? The majority is made up of People’s Deputies representing different political persuasions, ranging from the Right Centrists to Rukh members to Social Democrats to Left Center.
Speaking of democratic parties, I do not accept the notion of clan by definition. Clan also means a possibility to exert an influence, suppress, form, and appoint. We make no political barter deals, as anyone can make sure. The SDPU(o) which I represent was the first to nominate Leonid Kuchma for the presidency. We declared that our candidate will become President, yet we didn’t receive a single important post in the new government, not a Deputy Premier’s, not even a ministerial portfolio. Who can say we’re a clan?
The Day: But perhaps you wanted posts in the Cabinet and it just didn’t work out for some reason or another? A temporary retreat, so to say. On the other hand, I seem to remember that SDPU(o) has repeatedly mentioned a slow, gradual introduction to power. Then there were certain processes within Parliament and your party got hold of several quite powerful committees, and now the party leader is First Deputy Speaker, not just Deputy Speaker. Would you say that — well, one might call them pressure groups, clans or oligarchs — are interested in further reform or (as many believe) at this stage are they interested in making big quick money rather than reform?
H.S.: As for your first two questions, there is a well-known political rule saying hypothetical questions are never answered. All I can say is that we respect the President’s legitimate will, I mean his appointment of Viktor Yushchenko. We further consider the credit of confidence granted the new Prime Minister unprecedented — I mean the right to form the Cabinet given him by Mr. Kuchma.
As for getting hold of several committees and the First Deputy Speaker’s post, well, considering market reform secondary compared to work in the government can be expected only from one who acts according to the principle of the end justifies the means. Unfortunately, we’ve been through this.
In reality, oligarchs and reforms are an issue ridden to death. Let me tell you something. I know that the earlier press campaign blaming oligarchs for every mortal sin was accompanied by an ill- disguised desire to make the public believe that economic reform is being or will be obstructed by big capital, and that big capital supposedly would rather do without this reform. I think that today’s witch-hunt — let’s call things by their right names — against heavy caliber businessmen, among them lawmakers, by certain politicians and media under their control can be explained by two factors. First, an attempt to lead astray domestic and world public in their understanding of the actual obstacles to reform. Second, it’s a spoiling attack by certain political forces determined to blame failing reform on the dealings of oligarchs, in case the new government embarks on a new policy instead of carrying out reform.
Concerning reform, our faction continues to support the idea of a transparent market, quick progress in reform, without which Ukraine can’t even think of a better future, with jobs for every family, timely pay, and pensions. We must realize that a real budget can be replenished only by a real functioning economy. And all talk about clans and people behind those clans getting seats in Parliament to lobby their interests is nonsense. One can lobby for or against normal and effective laws meant for a normal transparent economy; one can talk about people wishing an abnormal, opaque market and abnormally structured economy. But the latter certainly has nothing to do with us.
The Day: Comparing Ukraine to other countries, one often hears that elsewhere in the world the business elite is a guarantor of stability. Who is to act as that locomotive force in Ukraine?
H.S.: I think it’s people that have something to lose. We need a middle class in Ukraine to make sure we never turn back. People that can think along the new lines already have an historical opportunity to achieve success in certain fields of endeavor. On the one hand, one could identify them as masters, owners, something that sounds frightening to the Soviet ear; on the other hand, they provide jobs and normal living conditions for their fellow citizens, not only by paying wages on time, but also by securing old-age pensions, stipends, and so on, through tax payments. I think that tax payments form the basis of any state. Personally, I can look a tax inspector, prosecutor, or militiaman in the eye, because I pay my taxes. I am not exporting any money and I keep my money in a Ukrainian bank. If I buy property I can always say where it comes from. Most importantly, I state it in my tax returns and make the payments required.
The Day: In other words, the time of making money quick and big is over. Now the struggle is between those wishing to protect their capital, creating a market environment for an increasing number of their fellow citizens, and those who were late for the gravy train and decided to catch up with the situation.
H.S.: As I said, there is a certain type of businessmen, among them my fellow legislators, trying to privatize government seats, seals, and stationery. This has nothing to do with property. We must understand today that only real property, quickly transforming marketing, management, and people monitoring such property and being interested in the end product (meaning new jobs, positive changes in management, and normal wages) are the basis of stability in certain sectors of the economy.
People wanting to make a quick buck, stealing everything they can lay their hands on, and live without making laws that will help reduce the number of those living at the expense of the national purse, while telling everybody that everybody is a thief anyway — such people are doomed.
Being wealthy does not mean being a thief. Regrettably, most in this society are convinced that people living better than they do made their money illegally. I am a millionaire, but I have no time for a normal lunch and I sleep 3-5 hours every 24 hours. I know that I pay taxes in good faith, together with my business colleagues, partners, and friends. I am an originator of businesses that are truly profitable and for this reason socially effective. I have the courage to spend well-earned money not only on myself and my family, but also, for the most part, as investment and reinvestment in production providing additional employment opportunities, and on patronage and sponsorship. Strange as it may seem, Dynamo is an exclusively losing business.
Some may try to play smart in politics, but this smart play is rather quickly exposed. Others try to play smart with journalists, but journalists are also smart for the most part; they can tell a stand from a pose. Playing smart with the electorate is the worst mistake one can make. My electorate knows that I really care, that I really know their problems. I was placed fifth in Ukraine by the number of votes and I organized work at my campaign headquarters so that people could share their problems with me six times a week. As a result, villages receive gas which they never had it under the Soviets, schools are under repair, old churches are renovated, and new ones are being built. Is this not evidence that we are normal people, that I care for my voters? Don’t I show an example refuting the prejudice that all a Ukrainian People’s Deputy wants in Parliament is to lobby for something he needs himself?
I do not support political favoritism and I have always wanted a transparent business and political atmosphere in Ukraine.
The Day: Will the current alignment of forces survive in Parliament or will part of the minority side with the majority? You will probably agree that the present majority does not suffice to solve certain constitutional problems. Is there a possibility of compromise and in what terms?
H.S.: We want this Parliament to stop being one of majority and minority. But that’s an idyllic assumption, an impossibility. As I have previously pointed out, we are too different ideologically.
Possibility of compromise? Judge for yourself. We want our people to be happy in the new political and economic environs. They are dragging us back to the 80-year-old system of coordinates of the Soviet Union. We want Europe. They want Asia. We want one and all to have private property. They want one and all to remain property of the state. We consider the Constitution as the fundamental law. To them, the party statute is canon law. Finally, we could achieve a compromise only with people wishing such compromises. In their eyes we are bourgeoisie and compradors. We should be wiped off the face of the earth. Trying to steer a middle course with such people means discrediting ourselves. I respect an outstanding woman born in Kyiv. Her name was Golda Meir and she said once, “We want to live. Our neighbors want to see us dead. I am afraid this does not leave much room for compromise.”
If Parliament were the only problem, it would not be that serious. But here the entire society is at stake. By splitting Parliament, the Left is splitting this society as a whole.
The situation is no longer tolerable and I will repeat what I said at the beginning, after the 1999 elections. If the Left won they would be in a position to make decisions and we would be in opposition. They lost, because they could not have won. Woe to the vanquished! So someone there worried that the victor’s injustice may surpass the loser’s guilt, so what? Let that someone worry about it. All I can say is if the Left had won the campaign there would be no one left to pose such questions.
The Day: Suppose we clarify a little. The majority had the option of replacing just Tkachenko and leaving Martyniuk by way of compromise with the Communists who are known to have backed down on their principles in such a situation. In the end the majority decided to replace the entire Verkhovna Rada leadership. Was this the principal aspect making the Ukrainian scenario different from the Russian one?
H.S.: The time for half measures is over. This country can’t wait any longer. The Left stating this won’t save all those people dying before their time, never living their lives to the end, never loving those they would have loved; all those people doomed to misery. We understand the reasons and causes of bills that are not passed day in and day out. Passing those bills is the measure of our responsibility.
If we decided to steer another middle course with the Left just to get the Speaker’s seat, this would be a short- lived agreement, as it was in the Russian Duma. I am absolutely convinced that this would get us nowhere. We would not have a majority but a temporary phenomenon; we would have an understanding for the time being. Someone would take the Speaker’s seat and the Communists would be in a position other than they are today and which they fully deserve, something known as opposition anywhere in the world and European community of nations. I am glad that the majority understands one thing. We cannot build a Parliament with the opposition having no rights whatsoever (we will pass opposition laws). In a sense, we have assumed political responsibility meaning an opportunity to cooperate with the executive and President who is certainly shouldering the greatest burden of responsibility before the nation for the situation in this society. Yet the President, while having this responsibility, must also exert certain influence through executive and legislative institutions. There hasn’t been a single case of the President, executive, or legislative branch doing anything in a synchronized manner for the good of the Ukrainian citizenry during our independence. We have assumed precisely this responsibility, and we are fully prepared to answer for the results of reforms.
The Day: How long will the current government exist?
H.S.: I am encouraged by the fact that the Cabinet was supported by 296 Deputies, that it has an opportunity to get support from the majority, something no previous governments even dreamed of. We will back its market reform and laws that we need to change our habitat. I am sure that if this Cabinet continues to work consistently, showing a systematic approach and proclaiming its slogans while carrying out real reforms, it will exist long enough, especially if it listens to what the majority has to say. For I am certain that the majority will not put up with a diktat , a monopoly of opinion. Everything must be done democratically, by discussion and joint decisions.
The Day: Is there anything about the Cabinet’s steps that makes you wary?
H.S.: Regrettably, the classical norm — coalition government with the majority in Parliament — has not been carried out in Ukraine. There is an objective explanation. The Premier was elected first and majority formed afterward. This is not a coalition government. Once again, the President made an unprecedented move (as did the majority), allowing the Premier to form his team. In this sense nothing about the new government makes me wary. I proceed from the fact that the Premier can decide who he wants to work with and the responsibility is also his.
The Day: What must be done to help Ukraine improve its image and shed the reputation of one of the world’s most corrupt countries?
H.S.: That’s an extremely important question. It can’t be answered in so many words. The problem has too many layers, situational overtones, and complicated background. Bureaucrats take bribes; they are corrupt because they are not properly provided for by the state. When we manage to create an atmosphere in which people doing their jobs professionally are paid good money we might just stand a better chance. of preventing our bureaucrats from taking bribes or falling prey to blackmail. But at this stage it’s all just wishful thinking.. To make it a reality we must increase the budget income ratio and raise living standards — and here I mean of both ordinary citizens and ranking executive officials. On the other hand, we should draw up not an honor or moral code, but a criminal code meting out quick punishment to officials even with lawmaking status. I am sure that the forthcoming referendum will cross all the T’s. I have always said that I don’t need parliamentary immunity.
The Day: Because you have enough power.
H.S.: Because I live not only by moral dictates and rules of honor, but also by the laws of this country. It’s time for transparency.
I also think that the world elite has chosen Ukraine as a kind of trial ground to test new methods of fighting corruption. Or a demonstration of this struggle. Of course, I am not saying that no one is stealing here. Remember what Gleb Zhiglov [hero of the popular Soviet television police series “Place of Rendezvous Can’t Be Changed,” starring Vladimir Vysotsky —Ed.] said? “The number of crimes is measured not by the number of thieves, but by the ability of authorities to solve these crimes.” Our law enforcement authorities need straightening out, no denying it, but they must be given a proper legislative implement. We are working on it.
Finally, our Foreign Ministry must take an active stand and be ready to attack. This is anything but simple. But I wouldn’t say that we are playing without any trumps. Besides, there is always a counterimage to any image.
The Day: We know that many got seats in Parliament because all questions are easier to decide there, particularly in the lobby. Do you really believe that they will eventually overcome the temptation to make a deal with one officeholder or another?
H.S.: We also know that scandals focusing on corrupt bureaucrats erupt now and then even in such countries as the United States, South Korea, or Germany. Remember Kohl, a political leader of so many years now facing charges? There are negative phenomena in every country and we are no exception. Yet in those other countries democracy is much older. We are just learning. Let me stress that our democracy is too young and the sad fact remains that many sincerely believe that democracy is inevitably accompanied by corruption. In reality, democracy has its own vehicles of combating corruption, social trust. We must not set about rediscovering America but just activate these vehicles. The trouble is that we lack culture and an ability to withstand temptation. Everyone should realize that there are laws and that he must live by them or answer for violating them.
The Day: This does not sound very convincing, because many believe that the higher one climbs the hierarchical ladder, becoming ever stronger, the less is the likelihood of being caught red-handed and thrown behind bars. In fact, it is generally considered that a whipping boy will always be found instead. How can we make people believe otherwise?
H.S.: That’s philosophy. I prefer to deal with hard facts, not assumptions. What president in what country will make every effort to return home a former premier? That’s what’s happening in Ukraine. What country has criminal proceedings started against individual officials (albeit some of these cases remain hanging)? We have negative and positive aspects. Personally, I don’t have any names in the upper echelons rating prison terms. I think that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Hence we must improve the judicial system, leaving no opportunity for ranking officials to abuse their office, making them remember that they will sooner or later face justice if they do.
The Day: Without political motivation...
H.S.: Right. A Cabinet member driving his car in the United States knows that the police will treat him precisely the same as any other citizen in case he violates any traffic rules.
The Day: Have you ever been stopped by a traffic cop or highway patrol in Ukraine?
H.S.: No, not if I driving a car with a Verkhovna Rada license plate. Yes, when I was driving my private car. But that was a long time ago, and it happened only a few times. You can always find a pretext to violate traffic rules, but then you can likewise explain wrongdoing in business or when running a government enterprise. If and when everybody realizes that a transgression will be eventually punished he will think twice before trying anything creative. That’s my answer.
The Day: Is this supposed to mean that you do not violate traffic rules?
H.S.: I try not to — unless I’m in too much of a hurry.
