Last Monday many Web sites reported that Ukraine’s first president Leonid Kravchuk might be expelled from the Social Democratic Party of Ukraine (United) because of his position on Ukraine’s NATO membership, which he expressed during the TV program “Savik Schuster’s Freedom.” However, Ihor Shurma, the first vice-chairman of the SDPU(U) and the deputy mayor of Kharkiv, later dismissed this news as a provocation. “There was no question of expelling Leonid Kravchuk from the party. We should remember that he is the first president of Ukraine, the father of our independence. He has the right to his own opinions, including on NATO.”
We asked Mr. Kravchuk about his relations with the SDPU(U), as well as about NATO, the face-off in the government team, and the mayoral election in Kyiv.
Mr. Kravchuk, what problems are you having with the SDPU(U) and what decision was reached by the party’s political council?
I am not part of the leadership of the SDPU(U) now, so I don’t know what the political council decided and whether it met at all. I have not been in the leadership for a long time. I am just a rank-and-file party member. I think these are nothing but rumors.
As for NATO, I have always taken a clear-cut stand here. Incidentally, in 2004 the SDPU(U) faction voted unanimously in favor of Ukraine’s accession to NATO. Unanimously!
But three years ago, when you were the number-one candidate on the Ne Tak! bloc list, you had a somewhat different attitude to NATO.
I have been saying the same thing over and over again, but people don’t listen. Ukraine should hold a referendum on whether to be in NATO.
I know there is a widespread opinion that Kravchuk keeps changing his point of view. What I really change is the nuances of my viewpoint, only nuances — depending on the situation and political expediency.
I must say that Russia is being aggressive towards Ukraine today. You know very well what some high-ranking Russian intellectuals, including Solzhenitsyn and Luzhkov, as well as Russian political scientists and politicians, are saying. They are saying that they will take the Crimea from us and target missiles against us, that Sevastopol is Russian land, etc. Nuances have changed, like life itself. We are always under Russian pressure. One should remember this and think about tomorrow.
Some people say: nobody is attacking Ukraine. But who is attacking Poland? Who is attacking Germany or France? If this is anything to go by, then there is no need for European security because nobody is attacking anybody. But there are some serious factors. Our foreign policy is supposed to be chiefly aimed at ensuring Ukraine’s independence, inviolability of our territory, and the preservation and development of our state. Today only NATO can establish a European system for defending Ukraine.
So I say again that my position remains the same: NATO after the referendum. The SDPU(U) is aware of this. They would even say at congresses that Kravchuk is taking his own position, and they always reckoned with this position. So I don’t think somebody can hit upon a crazy idea to expel Kravchuk, the number-one card-holder, from the party.
You will agree that in the past three years there has only been idle talk about NATO instead of explanations provided to the public. At one time you were in charge of ideology, so could you advise the current government on how to wage an information campaign so that Ukrainian citizens opt for NATO during the referendum?
Look, I think 54 and 42 percent voted for an alliance with Russia and NATO, respectively, at the beginning of Schuster’s program, but everything changed at the end: more people voted for NATO than for an alliance with Russia — just during the course of a single television program. This is what can be achieved if you talk trustingly and professionally with people.
As for explanatory work about NATO, first of all, you cannot entrust this task to people who have compromised themselves through their excessively harsh and radical statements and who are called nationalists in southern and eastern Ukraine. It would be counterproductive if these people campaigned for NATO.
Second, anti-NATO forces are drowned out by occasional protests. In other words, there should be a system. There should be special TV programs with knowledgeable guests invited to take part in them.
Another important psychological point: the NATO issue should be discussed within the context of the European Union and all the European institutions that Ukraine is supposed to join.
Do you think our domestic squabbles can thwart Ukraine’s Euro-Atlantic plans?
I must and will say frankly: I do not understand why the coalition is being destroyed — and very actively so — by the president. If we still have a domestic crisis and the coalition crumbles by December, will the scheduled NATO summit discuss the MAP issue? Of course not.
The impression is that one hand is doing things well, but the other is doing the opposite. For example, I bitterly resent hearing serious people saying that inflation has shot up because Tymoshenko paid senior citizens a thousand hryvnias each. Does this mean old people caused inflation? It is fantastically unfair to say that. The whole world recognizes that there are two sources of inflation: increases in fuel and food price. The Eurobank has specifically explained why inflation has risen throughout the European Union. There is rampant inflation in the US, China — in practically every country.
Second, is it only the cabinet’s job to curb inflation? I always say this is an integrated problem. Everybody, including the president and parliament, should make an all-out effort to control inflation because it affects every individual.
I will say again: the president’s milieu is extremely complex, and he should know what’s what. He should be able to see who is giving him good advice and what people are only giving advice for their own benefit.
Another pressing issue is the upcoming mayoral election in Kyiv. There are already more than 50 candidates. Why do you think Yulia Tymoshenko is not willing to back Vitalii Klitschko?
I personally phoned her to ask about this. She said it’s not a question of whether or not to support Klitschko. She has a positive attitude to him, but her party’s political council resolved that it should be a BYuT representative. She simply cannot defy the decision of her political bloc. After all, it is up to a political party to nominate somebody, but this does not mean she opposes Klitschko. All I know is that she is against Chernovetsky.
By all accounts, Chernovetsky is heading for a second term if there are so many candidates.
If people vote for Chernovetsky, he will be the mayor. One should not put the blame on the electorate. For me, the people’s will is law. I did not accept many politicians, and still don’t accept them today, but if the people vote for them, I will respect the voters’ choice.
AT PRESS TIME
The Political Bureau of the SDPU(U) issued a statement on Ukraine’s accession to NATO, which states: “We believe that Mr. Kravchuk, who is a long-time member of the SDPU(U) and the governing bodies of this party, which consistently supports our country’s neutral status in compliance with the Declaration on the Political Sovereignty of Ukraine, has an anti-NATO position, and at one time suggested collecting signatures for a national referendum on NATO and the EU, should determine to what extent his personal stance corresponds to that of the party of which he remains a member.”
