Historical tragedies never disappear and are never forgotten. The terrible interethnic conflict between Ukrainians and Poles in Volyn, which claimed tens of thousands of human lives in 1943-1944 on two warring sides, was hushed up in this country for decades: even in the already independent 1990s, this subject seemed to be taboo. It is the extreme zeal with which the Polish side brought the bloody Volyn events into focus that forced (alas, this is the right word) our leadership to more or less adequately react to this in the year 2003. All of us, Ukrainians and Poles alike, cannot possibly escape from the following series of extremely difficult questions that arise over the tragedy of sixty years ago. Who exactly is to bear historical responsibility for a mass massacre of people? What are the historical roots of the tragedy? Who should apologize? What should the further course of Ukrainian-Polish relations be if historical truth is not to fall victim to cheap political expediency? The Day’s round table on the Volyn events was special in that the answer to these (and many other) questions was sought by people well known throughout Ukraine, individuals whose rich lifetime experience allows them to see the terrible events of the past through the most valuable prism, that of their own deeply personal and inimitable perception. The interviewees are people born and raised in that long-suffering land, members of the Volyn fraternity, first President of Ukraine Leonid KRAVCHUK, People’s Deputies of Ukraine, Academician Mykola ZHULYNSKY, Serhiy SHEVCHUK, Lieutenant General Oleksandr SKIPALSKY, along with former ambassador of Ukraine to Poland and great poet Dmytro PAVLYCHKO.
Larysa IVSHYNA: “Honorable Mr. President, gentlemen, I am pleased that you found time for this interview because it is important for us, members of the great Volyn fraternity, to discuss this matter. On the other hand, you have all held important offices and saw these problems at the governmental level. It is important to discuss this precisely from such point of view, not just because of a personal pain. Yet, we would like our conversation to focus on two points. First, your personal and your families’ reminiscences of the 1943-1944 tragic events in Volyn. Each of you has heard of and knows about those events from your near and dear ones. Second, the way we must handle this history at the governmental level in order to build relations with our neighbors into compliance with the challenges of today. And one more, rather debatable, point. I know the way all those present here react to somebody saying that Ukraine is ‘under protection’ and needs ‘advocates.’ This was our good will to some extent: yes, we do need support, help, and a kind of new paternalism. But it seems to me this period is somewhat overdue. This in turn raises new points for discussion: the number of ‘advocates,’ the current condition of the state, and our new appraisal of ourselves; the line of behavior we would like to suggest to the Ukrainian elite or, if I may put it like this, what can eventually become the elite. These are essentially the three points I suggest. And, as Mr. Kravchuk holds quite a few offices in parliament, is a people’s deputy and fraction leader, The Day still considers him, above all, the first President, and I want Mr. Kravchuk to begin the discussion.”
UKRAINIANS UNDER THE POLES
Leonid KRAVCHUK: “The history of a nation consists of many factors, including its own history and the events imposed from the outside. Yet, the behavior of a people is always adequate to its strength, willpower, and capabilities. This is only natural. The history of every human being is part of the history of a nation and a state. So the behavior is not always adequate, for it depends, first of all, on each specific person.
“I was born in the Rivne region and remember well the times when we lived, as we said, ‘under the Poles.’ Although I was a little boy, I could see what Jozef Pilsudski’s policies were like. Our village was literally divided into two parts. One of them — the best lands, sort of gentry estates (folwarks) — belonged to Polish colonist landlords, while my parents owned just one and a half hectares, a very small land plot by the standards of those times. After quickly doing everything on their own farmstead, my parents would go together with the children to work for the landlord. I was then four or five years old, but I remember very well my mom and dad say, ‘Never raise your hand. Don’t pick cherries because the landlady will go wild over this.’ Indeed, this was severely punished. And, as I recall, I was dying for a cherry or two! And this parental caution still lingers in my mind. I will never forget, either, that they called us by no other terms than louts (khamy) and cattle (bydlo). This was absolutely normal, and our people even referred to themselves this way. That was our philosophy of life.
“When I look back on what I saw, I say it was sheer occupation. We have to call a spade a spade. For some want to present that situation as something accidental, as a return to some truth, to a better life... No, that was occupation, captivity, and absolute contempt for the Ukrainians. When what we called the reunification occurred in September 1939, the landlords left. Their lands were distributed among the landless poor. So these poor began to make short work of the land and the estates. Let’s face facts: the Ukrainian poor who took over the landlords’ estates failed to manage them properly. I think this history of those committees of poor peasants (komnezamy) started during the Revolution of 1917. I don’t want to hurt anybody’s feeling, but I must say that many of the poor were that way not only because they were deprived of property but because they couldn’t be any different. I am sure that Soviet power oriented itself toward the poor precisely since the times of committees of poor peasants. This tradition continues even today. My life was associated with Poland, and I can affirm today it was nothing but occupation. In this context, while assessing the tragedy that occurred sixty years ago, it is very important to determine our behavior today.
“I fully agree that what happened in Volyn in 1943-1944 is a horrible tragedy for the both the Ukrainian and Polish peoples. It would be a good idea to look at the past from the standpoint of fundamental values, such as freedom, statehood, nation, and people. I closely watch what is going on. We want to coordinate our position and our attitudes to the Volyn tragedy with Poland. But this is impossible: I’m even convinced this shouldn’t be done. What we should do is learn to face the real facts of the history of both the Polish and Ukrainian peoples. So it would be a grave mistake to adjust to each other’s positions. No matter how hard we try to assess that tragedy, we must remember its causes. We can view the events as struggle against occupation. And if we keep emphasizing that this was just the will of a, let us say, extremist part of the people, we will condemn — like it or not — the national liberation movement as such. And if we do so, we should think about what we are leaving to our descendants. Shall we tell them it is bad to fight against occupiers and no good to fight for independence? There are a lot of such questions, which in fact form the basis of a national movement.
“I’m watching now what’s happening in Warsaw. The ongoing conferences are undoubtedly interesting. Poland wants to mark the sixtieth anniversary of the Volyn tragedy on a nationwide level and put up a monument... Maybe Dmytro Pavlychko knows more about this, but I have information that the Poles want to write on their monument ‘To the victims of OUN-UPA crimes’ and to have something milder, more carefully worded, inscribed on the monument in Lutsk. If they do precisely so, we must write in reply, ‘To the victims of Polish extremist formations in Volyn.’ This would be the only correct approach. Otherwise, both sides should write, ‘To the victims of 1943-1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn.’ Who will then honor the memory of and erect a monument to the victims from our side?”
L.I.: “Mr. Kravchuk, in 1997 Presidents Kwasniewski and Kuchma issued a joint statement, ‘Towards Mutual Understanding and Unity,’ and that seemed to have turned the page of reciprocal accusations and opened the way toward a new life, a dialog between the two peoples. Why do you think it is now necessary to discuss the sixtieth anniversary in terms of a red-letter day? A few years later, in 2007, there will be the anniversary of the Wisla (Vistula) Operation. So the whole decade will be strewn with this kind of jubilee. Could this be an indication of rightwing pressure on Poland’s domestic policy?”
L. K., “There is a National Institute of Memory in Poland which deals with crimes during the period of totalitarianism. Incidentally, its structure comprises an investigating body — a general commission for investigating the crimes against the Polish people. This commission has the right to carry out investigations, including those under the article on crimes against humanity. The investigating body’s head is simultaneously an institute deputy director and a Deputy Prosecutor General of Poland. The general commission investigates crimes committed against Polish nationals, above all, those who resided on the territory of the former Soviet Union within the borders of September 17, 1939, i.e., on the territory of present-day Western Ukraine.
“As of today, the commission is going through about forty cases, investigating, and I quote, ‘the crimes of Ukrainian nationalists against the Polish population.’ In other words, a special body has been doing this kind of research for more than ten years. Quite obviously, as I was told, a huge number of all kinds of documents has been accumulated during this time. And I am convinced the Polish establishment wants to use this commission and this investigation to draw certain political and moral conclusions from the Volyn tragedy. Unfortunately, frankly speaking, Ukraine isn’t prepared for this. The Ukrainians have not done such fundamental work as the Polish have. In this case, we seem to be guided by emotions rather than by historical and documentary analysis.
“And I think when the leaders — presidents or anybody else — of Ukraine and Poland meet, we should not forgo the historical truth and historical facts for the sake of friendship and the future. I am sure a true Pole will never approve the submissive behavior of a Ukrainian, no matter what office he might hold. For he is aware that this submissiveness will sooner or later give way to aggressiveness, which will be viewed again as a reproach to friends and foes alike. As long as Poland is going to commemorate the Volyn tragedy (we cannot forbid the Polish to do so, for they have made a decision to this effect), we must at least make our position clear. By no means should we look back at ‘advocacy,’ the gas pipeline or, say, ‘eternal friendship...’ We have already had this kind of experience. The Ukrainians must not give up the main thing — national dignity and truth for themselves and their descendants.”
THE POLISH ARE NOT QUITE PREPARED FOR A DIALOG
L. I.: “Mr. Kravchuk, I fully agree with you. Mr. Zhulynsky, who should the Ukrainians pin their hopes on to have our national dignity upheld and our national interests served? For I haven’t heard the self-proclaimed patriotic parties say anything on this issue.”
Mykola ZHULYNSKY: “My dear Ms. Ivshyna, I want, first of all, to express a word of gratitude to you and your collective for your persistent longtime attempts to give a comprehensive evaluation of what we call the Volyn Tragedy of 1943- 1944. It is very important that Ukraine should know the truth about these events. Regrettably, Ukrainians know very little about it. Now some personal comments. In August 1943 our village, called Novosilky at the time (in Rivne oblast), was surrounded by Polish police and the Germans, and villagers began to run away across the river Styr to the villages of Tovpyzhyn and Hrabivets. Some managed to flee, some did not: there were machine-guns firing. Clearly, the operation was aimed against the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). Among the villagers there really were people who fought under UPA colors. But my father didn’t fight. He was not a UPA combatant, for he had been in the Soviet Army and taken prisoner. Then he came back home and lived with our family. I was then two years old or something. He took me in his arms and hid by the Styr. The Polish policemen with dogs spotted him and took him out. They lined up all the men they found. They forced him to let me go. He told me to go home. I don’t remember... Then they were taken away on trucks. Eight or ten men were disembarked in the woods near Horokhiv and shot dead without even a summary trial. The rest were taken to a Lutsk jail and then to a concentration camp. My father went through three German extermination camps: Auschwitz, Dachau, and Sagan. From that time until 1971 we didn’t even know if he was dead or alive.
“This tragedy also touched upon other relatives of mine. For example, Mykhailo, the son of my mother’s brother, had served in the Polish army. When the Germans routed Poland, he was on the way home and ran into a Polish ambush, just a stone’s throw from the village... He was shot down for... unwillingness to fight for Poland. We don’t know where his grave is. The other Mykola, 17, was also shot by a Polish firing squad near Horokhiv. The third child, a daughter, also died. In brief, this left two old people without three children — they didn’t even know where the children were buried. My uncle Andriy, a cow herd, who informed the UPA about the approaching police and Germans, was caught by the Polish police: they cut out his tongue, gouged out his eyes, and crucified him. That was a great and horrible tragedy, and we undoubtedly have to remember it.
“I would like, if you don’t mind, to further develop Mr. Kravchuk’s idea. The point is that the Poles, unlike the Ukrainians, have indeed made a thorough study of these problems. As a matter of fact, we are now in a position without arguments. Unfortunately, we have collected too few eyewitness reports and documentary materials. This was caused, above all, by the lack of access to archival, especially Polish, materials (this was flatly banned in the communist period). Now that the ban has been lifted, the truth is being revealed. It seems to me the Polish side failed to foresee the tide now rolling onto Poland. Honoring the memory of their compatriots who died in Volyn and elsewhere, they are not quite prepared to know the whole truth of which Mr. Kravchuk spoke and which we did not discuss for a number of reasons. It is clear, though, why we did not discuss it in the communist times.
“Yet, I would like to make a somewhat unorthodox digression. In the early 1970s, German veterans’ associations began to raise their heads. Although they were active, they were largely dismissed as ‘a bunch of old people...’ But, contrary to expectations, they pressed on. These associations have been claiming lately that Germany not only wiped out a lot of other peoples but also... fell victim to the Second World War. They mention as an example the fate of the Sudeten Germans. You know about [Czechoslovak] President Benes’ decrees and the ongoing acute squabble between Germany and the Czech Republic. The Germans demand that the decrees be condemned and suggest that an anti-deportation center be established. But this is the problem of not only the Sudeten Germans but also the Germans who resided on what is now Polish territory. The Poles also found themselves not quite prepared to stem this tide. The point is the Germans, in fact deported from their historical homeland (Silesia, Pomerania, and Danzig {now л Slask, Pomorze, and Gdansk — Ed.}), are now raising the question of establishing a center in memory of German deportees. Where? The Poles are already saying: perhaps in Wroclaw... This is quite a serious problem. The Poles think, for some reason, that they are already morally prepared to adequately address these problems. But, in my opinion, they aren’t at all prepared for this. We can tell, for example, the story of Edvabno. Mr. Pavlychko knows very well that in 1941 Polish nationalists wiped out the whole Jewish population and plundered their property in the shtetl of Edvabno. Nobody said even a word about that crime until US and German historians took up this problem. The Poles were forced to launch a nationwide debate on anti-Semitism and chauvinism. We know how the Poles reacted...”
Dmytro Pavlychko: “As a result, Aleksander Kwasniewski came to Edvabno and apologized to the Jews on behalf of the Polish people...”
M. Z.: “The Wisla (Vistula) Operation has not been fully condemned, by the Polish side. Let us recall the Jaworzno concentration camp, where Ukrainians were not only kept but also sentenced to death and executed by firing squads... Why are the Germans raising the question of deportees? They clearly need this as compensation for the guilt they bear. ‘For we also suffered, which somewhat assuages our crimes, our guilt, our pangs of conscience, etc. ...’ We are now talking about the Volyn problems, but still to be discussed is Zasiannia, Kholmshchyna, and Pidliashshia, in which case Poland has in fact taken no steps. But this immediately raises the following question: why not establish a Ukrainian deportees center, as the Germans are raising the question of a German deportees center in the Sudetenland or, say, in Gdansk...?
“The current problem is that the Ukrainians should not view the Volyn events as kind of a pitchfork with which the Poles are going to lift us so that we see the truth. The truth is terrible, but we must also say honestly that there were also crimes on the Ukrainian part which we firmly condemn. We must explain to ourselves and our people why that happened.
“We have launched a debate on the SS Halychyna (Galician) Division. But nobody talks about the fact that there was a similar division in France: more Frenchmen died on the German side than on that of the Resistance and the forces that fought for the liberation of France from Nazi Germany. So there are very many serious problems here. It is too early to say in our discussion today that the problem has been done way with...”
L. I.: “When the Poles came to hold bilateral talks on Volyn, they brought with them ten volumes written by a presidential staff commission. This is an ample piece of evidence for politicians. The Ukrainians came in with a thin folder: this is a matter of reproach for the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences, and the University of Volyn (I visited Lutsk last December and said, ‘Dear colleagues, please write, we’re ready to publish’). Nobody in general cared about how the state will look until it came to the crunch. It is still obvious that we must understand the political and social backdrop of the problem of unilateral repentance. When we hear again the ominous phrase, ethnic cleansing... If the Poles did something wrong, the blame falls exclusively on the totalitarian regime, but when Ukraine is in question, charges are leveled at Ukrainian criminals. I think this should be a matter of general attention in Ukraine as well.
IF TOMORROW IS TO BE SHROUDED IN HISTORICAL UNTRUTH, THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOMORROW
L. I.: “And what is the attitude of Germany toward Poland and that of Ukraine toward Poland?”
D. P.: “Well, whatever we say and calculate, these are our own Ukrainian woes. No matter how hard we try to lay the whole blame on the Poles, we will always bump into the Polish side which will be doing exactly the same. There have always been and will be two national truths. And we must reduce these truths to one common truth. It is almost impossible, but it has to be done. I approve of Volodymyr Serhiychuk’s book, The Tragedy of Volyn. He is our first historian who has collected certain archival materials. Ukrainian-Polish history is not drawing to a close but is only beginning. If we think that everything was in the past, we will never come to an acceptable conclusion. We had no state, we were a stateless nation, while the Polish had a state of their own. So they have an entirely different attitude toward history.”
L. I.: “But this argument has no effect on them now.”
D. P.: “I know it hasn’t, but we are talking about our own argument.”
L. K.: “One word, please. I will try to answer a very interesting question. Why are the Poles striving so actively to observe the tragedy’s sixtieth anniversary? Dmytro Pavlychko is right, saying that they have far more grievances to settle with the Germans. But Germany is a strong state. I think Polish rightwing forces feel that today’s Ukraine is a politically and economically weakened state beset with a host of problems and in need of a guide. Moreover, our bureaucrats keep saying that Poland should be that guide. And we appreciate and exalt this to the skies and say: let Ukraine not emphasize the historical truth and accept softer worded conclusions in the name of its current interests and in the name of, say, future friendship with Poland.
“I agree with Mr. Pavlychko that we should think about tomorrow. But if tomorrow is to be shrouded in historical untruth, there will never be a tomorrow. For nobody can deny the fact that in 1943 the Polish government-in-exile negotiated with Stalin and Western leaders that Volyn should be part of Poland after the war. Only after the Potsdam Conference was this question taken off the agenda. Tell me please: could the nationally-minded forces on those lands put up with this philosophy? Next, it was, to some extent, a Jacquerie because axes, pitchforks, and scythes were used... It was not accidental that I recalled the colonists. They took the land! The Ukrainians never tried to foray into the Polish lands. If we say now bluntly that this never happened in our history and that we must take all blame, then, pardon me, what will we leave after us in history — for our children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren? What will we leave for them? A simple and clear thing: we are ready to start, together with the Poles, writing a history suitable for Poland, we are ready to team up with the Russians in writing a history suitable for Russia... Then who are we? We must not do this! I stress again: if we want mutual condemnation and mutual apology, it should be truly mutual. Now about monuments. I recalled them not by accidentally either. For a monument is not a book to be read with arguments in hand. It will stand forever: ‘here are the villains, OUN-UPA.’ That’s all! What about us? We won’t have anything. Then we’ll say — Pavlychko is right — we’re all criminals. I remember very well the times when I was a member of the Communist Party Central Committee: there was not a single report of the CC First Secretary without the phrase ‘Ukrainian bourgeois nationalists, fierce enemies of the Ukrainian people; OUN-UPA, the trash of the Ukrainian people.’ This still lingers in the heads of thousands of people — and this is natural because we are unable to put things in order in our own house. ‘The Ukrainians will give in, you just have to press them a little. They don’t know anything themselves.’ Thank you, we have at least one book.”
“THE HEROES WHOSE GRAVES ARE IN AN ALIEN LAND WILL NEVER RISE FROM THEIR GRAVES”
D. P.: “I want to say in conclusion of about what I remember...”
L. K.: “I’m sorry, I interrupted you.”
D. P.: “I don’t mind you interrupting me. You used to interrupt me in Verkhovna Rada but, thank God, I could also interrupt you, and then we proclaimed together an independent Ukrainian state. Yes, it was I who sat behind Leonid Makarovych Kravchuk and brought him the edited text of the Independence Proclamation Act on August 24, 1991.
“So I want to tell you that all the bloody conflicts that arose between Poland and Ukraine never led to the victory of either side. Even Bohdan Khmelnytsky’s victory over Poland eventually pushed Ukraine into the Ruin and then into Tsarist Russian captivity. Then Poland was partitioned also and the part of it with Warsaw was annexed by Russia. This occurred because Kazimierz the Great began to conquer Ukrainian lands in 1349, without understanding that a conquered land will never remain yours, that, as Ivan Franko said, ‘the heroes whose graves are in an alien land will never rise from their graves.’ I would like to note that Franko wrote an article called ‘Our View of the Polish Question.’ I can’t quote it exactly, but the gist is as follows: we, Ukrainians, will never agree to the restoration of Poland in its old boundaries. Then Franko asks us directly: what is a realistic or, as we say now, pragmatic policy? Franko teaches us, ‘we must always think about tomorrow. I fully agree with Mr. Kravchuk that Ukrainians should study down to the tiniest detail this tragedy and, in general, all that we had with the Poles: otherwise, there will be no progress. But we must also take into account what the great Pole Jerzy Gedroyc said, ‘Let us renounce Lviv!’ And the current Polish government has done so. So what do you want? To erect a monument only to worsen Ukrainian-Polish relations? For Kuchma and Kwasniewski signed in 1997 the document ‘Towards Mutual Understanding and Unity’ which calls on Poles and Ukrainians to unite and be the closest nations, to build a common European civilization. Besides, there were instances in our Polish-Ukrainian history, when great Polish figures, for example, Juliusz Slowacki, a great son of the Ukrainian soil and one of the greatest geniuses of Polish literature, said in 1835, before Shevchenko, in the words of an Ukrainian woman to a Polish noble, ‘You, dishonest creature, won’t know that Ukraine will arise some day.’ This was said by a Pole. The point is some Poles served us, and we served the Poles. And, when Poland recently launched a debate on the SS Halychyna division and began to berate us, somebody recalled that this division’s commander, Pavlo Shandruk, had been awarded Order Virtuti Militari, for he had been a Polish army officer and gallantly fought against the Germans in 1939 at the head of the 20th Brigade. He got this highest Polish medal from the London- based government in exile. This made Poland shut up. We must not only say, ‘We apologize and pardon you,’ but also search our history for and celebrate the events that bring us closer.”
L. K.: “The Poles must also search for the same thing.”
D. P.: “Of course, not only we. They also. For the Poles want to celebrate what disunites us, and we should suggest that we celebrate what unites us. For there can be no bloody justice. There will be no truth either here or there if we choose to erect tendentious and unrighteous monuments. Today we must view Poland as not a homogeneous mass but as a nation in which different political trends compete. I am convinced that victory will be won by a trend that could have once said and can say now, ‘Our existence is unthinkable without Ukraine’.”
(To be continued)
