What did President Nursultan Nazarbaev of Kazakhstan mean when he said that Ukraine’s elected president can no longer guarantee stability of the state? What is Astana’s attitude to the current face-off in Ukraine between the president and the anti-crisis coalition headed by the prime minister?
The answers to these and other questions are the subject of an exclusive interview with Amangeldy ZHUMABAEV, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Republic of Kazakhstan to Ukraine and Moldova.
“WHAT HAPPENED IN UKRAINE IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT NOT TO DO”
The media have quoted President Nursultan Nazarbaev of Kazakhstan as saying that “the publicly elected president of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, is unable to guarantee stability of the state and that is why he began to demand that his powers be restored.” Is this Astana’s official reaction to the events in Ukraine?
“Before we focus on this phrase, we should have an accurate idea of what the president of Kazakhstan really said at the April 8 press conference. Some newsmen publish excerpts from the interview, which water down and distort the essence of his response. Our president always meets the press to discuss domestic and foreign policies. Why did he mention Ukraine in this context? The president was asked which system of government — presidential or parliamentary — is best for Kazakhstan. President Nazarbaev said he favors presidential rule as long as statehood is still in its infancy both in Ukraine and in Kazakhstan, although he does not rule out a parliamentary republic in the future. What happened in Ukraine is an example of what not to do. The restructuring of parliament, which took place two years after the Orange Revolution, showed an inability to solve a lot of problems. It is in this vein that one should interpret the words of Kazakhstan’s president, who maintains good relations with his Ukrainian counterpart. We would like you to understand that our president’s words meant that what Ukraine needs is a government system that can ensure a smooth passage through the transitional period, so that people can live better and the state can fulfill the tasks facing it.”
What do you think of the events in Ukraine after President Yushchenko dissolved the Verkhovna Rada? Who do you think is right in this situation — the president or the prime minister and the anti-crisis coalition?
“My principle is not to interfere in the internal affairs of the state in which I am posted. At the same time, I must say that we want this state to have stability and predictable economic and social policies, so that we can clearly see prospects for our cooperation. But I am not supposed to pass any judgments on the country’s internal political life, on who is right or wrong. All I can say is that everything should comply with the law. This is a fundamental approach. The law must be supreme in any state. I think that in Ukraine the Constitutional Court should hand down a ruling and all the parties must obey it. I’m sorry, but I cannot appraise the actions of the president, the prime minister, or parliament. This is Ukraine’s internal affair.”
Can you imagine a situation in Kazakhstan, where the president issues an edict and the cabinet refuses to comply with it?
“Presidential rule is good because it requires obeying the law. Our idea of democracy is freedom within the framework of the law. Naturally, our laws improve with every passing year. The key factor is whether or not society is prepared to accept a particular law. If it is, we pass this law and everybody, including the president, must observe it.”
There is a popular saying: “Wherever there are two Ukrainians, there are three hetmans.”
“I totally disagree with this. I have been here for three years and have had a lot of contact with Ukrainians. I can say that your people are very tolerant and kind. I doubt that nothing would have happened in any other country with this kind of confrontation between two very large opposing camps. But in your case, thanks to public tolerance, things are proceeding absolutely in a peaceful vein. People are expressing their views. It is a supreme achievement of democracy when individuals are free to express themselves.”
“OUR TIME-TESTED RELATIONS WILL BE DEVELOPING STEADILY”
Have the events in Ukraine affected our bilateral relations? Have they scared off Kazakh business people?”
“The current events in Ukraine are in no way affecting our business relations. There is not too much excitement here. It is just a small blip. As a representative of the president of Kazakhstan, I can assure you that our time-tested relations will be developing steadily. Proof of this is our president’s address to the nation on Feb. 28, 2007, during which he stated that our country should focus on the Caspian and Black Sea markets.”
“WE ENCOURAGE PEOPLE OF OTHER ETHNIC ORIGINS WHO HAVE A GOOD COMMAND OF THE KAZAKH LANGUAGE”
Our countries have a common problem: establishing the national language as the official one — Ukrainian in Ukraine and Kazakh in Kazakhstan. Do you think Ukraine can draw on your experience of introducing the Kazakh language into all spheres of public life?
“We oppose any mechanistic application of other countries’ approaches to tackling certain domestic problems. Naturally, Kazakhstan studies the experience of various countries. But we believe we should take into account the actual situation in the country. Kazakhstan is a multiethnic state. Russians account for 30 percent of the population, and there are half a million Ukrainians in our country. So we cannot forcibly impose the official language on them. We have a special long-term program and a law that calls for introducing the Kazakh language into all spheres of Kazakh society. The Russian- speaking population is very well aware that this law is necessary, and we should go gradually, step by step, towards its implementation. We encourage people of other ethnic origins who have a good command of the Kazakh language. I think the law will be modified in the course of time, and those civil servants who are not ethnic Kazakhs but have perfect fluency in the Kazakh language will have an edge over others as far as career promotion and salary are concerned.”
But you are not going to raise the question of declaring Russian a second official language?
“The Constitution says that Kazakh is the national language, while Russian can be officially used in central and local governmental bodies on a par with Kazakh. In the course of time, the Kazakh language will naturally prevail. But we should not speed this up. There are some regions where Kazakhs comprise between 80 and 90 percent of the population, which conduct all paperwork in Kazakh. There is no need to do it in two languages here. Some ministries are also conducting paperwork in Kazakh, while other agencies and departments are gradually resorting to this. We are doing all this gradually.”
What would you say about an MP who says that the Kazakh language can only be used at the level of folklore and jokes?
“I consider such statements an affront to national dignity. This must not be tolerated — either in Ukraine or Kazakhstan or any other country. We have no right to insult nations or infringe their rights. It is written in our Constitution that we have no right to oppress other nations on the grounds of race, faith, or language. We all belong to the same God. I think every language deserves respect. No matter how small a nation is, it is the asset of humankind. This is the correct approach. There can no ‘senior’ and ‘junior’ languages. This is our common treasure created over the course of centuries and millennia.”
President Nazarbaev said recently that Kazakhstan can in principle join the construction of an oil pipeline across the Caucasus and Ukraine to Europe. But he noted that Russia should also be involved in this project. Do you think it is risky to involve Russia in the construction of alternative oil pipelines? After all, it may hinder such projects out of its own considerations.
“Let’s be objective. We are now supplying about 50 million tons of oil to the world market, the lion’s share of which (about 80 percent) crosses the territory of Russia. Is this fact not sufficient for us to take Russian interests into account? At the same time, we can benefit from participating in the Baku-Ceyhan project. Although Russia objected, we joined it because we were pursuing the interests of Kazakhstan. We have built a 10-million-ton oil pipeline to China. Late last year it was decided to build a second branch of this line with the same capacity. Our Western partners take a dim view of this project, but in such cases we always focus on what is advantageous to Kazakhstan. Of course, it is difficult to separate oil and gas from politics. But we are trying to keep politics at bay in this case.
“If building an oil pipeline to the Caucasus proves advantageous, we will opt for this. At the negotiations with the European Union we are saying: show us your project, the direction, the need, and our benefit, and we will accept it. There are no problems here. Kazakhstan is now producing about 60 million tons of oil, with foreign companies accounting for 85 percent of this output. They do not need to be persuaded. If you offer them a good option where they can reap a profit, they will come by themselves.”
“SO FAR PROJECTS, LIKE NABUCCO AND ODESA-BRODY ARE JUST A GOOD INTENTION”
What about Kazakhstan joining the Odesa-Brody project?
“This project is really interesting to us as an alternative path. But we are saying to the European Union and Ukraine: give us a quote. Tell us what the Odesa-Brody pass-through tariff will be. The answer is: give us oil delivery guarantees. How can we guarantee this? This is the market. The advantage is that there is a choice. Therefore, I think that if Poland and Ukraine want to diversify oil supplies, they should first figure out how to get Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and Russia on board. This is what should be considered. If there is something that piques your interest, then there are no problems. I think all this can be resolved because every company in the world is interested in advantage.”
On the other hand, it is also important to know if any oil will be available by the time the pipeline is ready.
“We are not concealing our capacity. We have already announced that we will be producing 130 to 150 million tons of oil by 2015. This means almost a threefold increase in output. We are saying that we need additional supply routes. We are negotiating with Russia about deliveries through a pipeline crossing Bulgaria and Greece.”
What about the Nabucco project?
“We have been invited to participate in this project. But we are saying: show us a basic calculation. So far, nobody has given us one. Such projects as Nabucco and Odesa- Brody are still just a good intention. Last year we signed a memorandum with the EU in support of their intentions to diversify energy resources. We are making certain commitments. But we say again: give us a concrete project, a calculation.”
Is the advent of a new leader in Turkmenistan going to tip the energy balance in Central Asia?
“Before being appointed to Ukraine, I worked in Turkmenistan for four years. It is a wonderful country with beautiful people. The new leader has vast experience and a broad outlook. In my view, he will also try to be independent of everyone, be it Russia, China, or America. Turkmenistan is going to pursue a policy of greater freedom. This can only be possible if you have more than one direction.”
“ACCESSION TO THE WTO WILL ENABLE US TO INCREASE REVENUES BY 30 PERCENT”
President Nazarbaev recently announced plans to form a Central Asian Union. What is the purpose of this union?”
“We have always endorsed the idea of forming this kind of union. It is cheaper to trade with your close neighbor than to transport your products elsewhere. Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, and Kazakhstan belong to a region that can fully provide for its own food, electricity, and other indispensable products. Why should we march separately? Our aim is primarily economic cooperation. If we achieve this, we will have mutually open markets, and a freely-moving capital and workforce. Everybody will benefit from this.”
Are you going to unite on WTO principles?
“Undoubtedly. We are building all associations, even the Single Economic Space, on WTO principles because it is our goal, as it is of Ukraine, to be a member of this organization. Incidentally, Kazakhstan is now in the final stage of the accession process. We believe we will benefit from this. Accession to the WTO will enable us to increase our revenues by 30 percent by selling our goods on the international market.”
“WE SHOULD STRIVE FOR THE BEST LIVING STANDARDS”
With what do you associate NATO? What is your attitude to Ukraine’s membership in this organization?
“We maintain permanent contacts with NATO and take part in the Partnership for Peace program. We regard NATO as an advanced organization that meets modern requirements. We are borrowing from its experience. If a country wants to join this organization, this is that country’s wish and internal matter.”
There has been much talk lately that many post-Soviet countries are facing a choice: to join the Western European civilization or remain under the influence of the Eurasian civilization. Which civilization does Kazakhstan consider itself part of?
“We have great respect for all civilizations. It is always wrong to say that one civilization is advanced and another is outdated or archaic. There are simply standards in every region, according to which people live. Of course, from this angle, living standards are much higher in Europe. We are trying to approach these standards. At the same time, there are cultural standards. We do not accept some of them, which is only natural. One should compare where it is better and where it is worse. In my opinion, we should strive for the best living standards. As for our culture, we must develop and cherish it, so that people can understand it. Here is an example: before the October Revolution it was believed that only 2 percent of the Kazakh population was literate, but this figure only referred to those who could write in Russian, while 90 percent could write and read Arabic.”
