Hungary entered the North Atlantic Treaty Organization when there was no NATO Membership Action Plan. This country also held a referendum concerning entering the Alliance, although nobody demanded this from Budapest. How does our neighbors assess the efforts of the Ukrainian government on the way of Euro-Atlantic integration? Does Kyiv indeed face new entry conditions as well as conditions for getting the MAP? How does Hungary want to help Ukraine so that our country entered NATO sooner? What affect may the financial crisis have upon Ukrainian-Hungarian economic relations and what will be Hungary’s priorities when it will be running EU presidency in 2011? These and other questions will be raised in The Day‘s interview with Hungarian Ambassador to Ukraine Andras BARSONY.
“NATO ALSO NEEDS GUARANTIES THAT THE COUNTRY’S ENTRY INCREASES THE ALLIANCE’S SECURITY.”
Mr. Ambassador, your country became NATO member without any MAP. And now we can see that Ukraine and Georgia face more and more obstacles and new demands. It appears as if the doors of the Alliance are closed rather than open. Along with this NATO speaks regularly about the policy of open doors. What, in your opinion, caused the appearance of new conditions for entering the Alliance?
“I don’t think that the demands have become higher. But, at the same time, the entry conditions depend on the country’s political situation. Two years ago situation both here and in Georgia was calmer than today. Therefore one can say that the conditions remain unchanged, but the political situation in Ukraine and Georgia has undergone some changes. Previously, when the idea appeared to give the MAP to both countries, one didn’t have to speak about a stable political climate. Once it has grown unstable, one cannot speak about appearance of new conditions. But in any case, political stability is a fundamental base, in spite of whether it is mentioned or not.
“When Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland were accepted to NATO, it was clear that we ought to have normal political contacts not only with the members of the Alliance, but also with our neighboring countries. But the main condition for us was not to have open political conflicts with neighboring countries. NATO did not want to add fuel to the fire and to fuel conflicts between countries, moreover, to bring them into the Alliance. Having a look at Ukraine and Georgia, these countries have problems both at home and with their neighbors.
“It cannot be so that the Alliance accepted a country with an obligation to give guaranties of security and at the same time was getting conflicts. NATO also needs guaranties that the country’s entry raises the Alliance’s security.”
Does not it appear to you that the question of the MAP has grown very politicized today, although this is only a single step on the way of getting the membership?
“Why is this question politicized? Because NATO is primarily a political organization, not only a militaristic one. Speaking about the membership or steps toward NATO membership, of course, this is a political question.
“There are technical problems afterwards, modernization of military forces and so on. But all the decisions made within NATO are first of all political. If the patners are stable as well as the country’s home and foreign policy, one can start thinking that these partners may bring something positive to NATO, not vice versa. NATO is an organization, which does not want to influence any country’s home policy, but any country should be ready to understand these conditions. It is necessary that we were not only speaking, but thinking in the same language.”
INNER PROBLEMS AND INFORMING ABOUT NATO
Russia states clearly that it is against Ukraine’s entry into NATO. Are the Alliance and its members doing enough in order to help out country not only to prepare for this entry, but also to convince the Kremlin that this step is not aimed against it?
“What the Russian Federation thinks about NATO is its own business. Of course, before the August events in the Caucasus, the Alliance had good and correct relations with Russia. If there happen any bilateral conflicts between Ukraine and the Russian Federation, we try to remove them. But we cannot tell our partners how they should work to resolve these problems. It seems to me that in this case Ukraine’s domestic problems add power to those opponents who want that there be problems between Kyiv and Moscow.”
What, in your opinion, should one await from the summit of foreign ministers of NATO member countries in December?
“I cannot say what will happen in December this year. Hungary has always been supporting the policy of reaching a compromise and agreement, and we will continue to do so. Judging from the situation in Ukraine, it is far from agreement so far. I can say openly that the MAP may be a step. But the main thing is home situation and preparation of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. We support this process with or without the MAP. This depends on Ukraine. As for Hungary, we are rendering assistance, and seminars with Ukrainian partners are regularly taking place both on the bilateral level and within the framework of the Visegrad Four.”
Do you feel that Ukraine is carrying out a NATO information campaign?
“The thing is not only about informing. The opinion that the problem is in PR, is wrong, although it is important to inform about the activity of the Alliance. But we understand that Soviet stereotypes are very strong in Ukraine. However, a new generation, which is thinking in a different way, is growing.”
Mr. Ambassador, what Hungarian experience concerning informing about NATO may Ukraine need?
“Of course, everything depends on what interest Ukrainian partners have. Despite our parliament practically unanimously voted for joining NATO, our government still decided to hold a referendum. This was caused by the need for getting rid of the old stereotypes. People got bored that several hundreds or tens of other people were making decisions for them. After the parliament’s decision there was a period when government and opposition were trying to create a kind of atmosphere in the country, which would make referendum a successful one. Over 85 percent of population supported the entry to NATO after all.
“For Ukraine it is important that those who support entry to NATO were sincere and did not act in the way that deteriorates relations with Russia instead of improving them. Such a thing exists here. They say sincere words, but do not support them with deeds.”
“THE POLICY OF GOOD NEIGHBORING HAS BEEN AND STILL REMAINS A PRIORITY FOR US”
Mrs. Kinga Goencz in her June speech, speaking about the priorities of Hungary’s foreign policy, did not mentioned Ukraine. Can this be explained by the fact that your country within the framework of relations between the US and Russia belongs to a group of countries called “friendly pragmatics”?
“The speech you have mentioned took place at an annual conference of diplomats. At first the prime minister took the floor and named the priorities. And our minister only supplemented the speech of the head of our government. Ukraine is our largest neighbor and one of the most important economic partners. We have wonderful relations. The volumes of bilateral trade are yearly increasing by 35-30 percent. The policy of good neighboring has been and still remains a priority for us. We practically don’t have any big problems with Ukraine on a bilateral level.We have to preserve these wonderful political relations in spite of what government you will have. Of course, we support Ukraine’s ambitions on the ground of these political and economic values. But one should listen to what real ambitions your country has. It is not enough that one side said one thing and the other side — a different thing, because home political situation is taken into account. We can support only what is based on the Ukrainian political climate.”
Does your country support Kyiv’s request to include the prospect of membership to the preamble of the new association agreement between Ukraine and the EU?
“Of course. We agree by 100 percent with what is stated in the Amsterdam Agreement: every European state has a prospect to become EU member once the existing criteria are fulfilled. We support and understand Ukraine’s ambitions concerning the EU membership. Our country, as well as yours, had to fulfill the conditions that have remained unchanged. First of all they include the harmonization of the legislation. But besides that, there are Copenhagen political criteria. They say clearly: normal relations with neighboring countries. This norm was valid when we were entering the EU.”
Won’t it happen so that Russia feeling that Ukraine’s entry to the EU is real, will try to prevent this step, fearing to lose its control over our country?
“I don’t think that Russia will be against Ukraine’s EU membership. First of all, Russia is not able to forbid any country to become member of NATO and the EU. This lies with both of these organizations.”
PRIORITIES OF PRESIDENCY AND NABUCCO PROJECT
It is known that your country will be running EU presidency in 2011. Are there any plans concerning the priorities of the Hungarian presidency?
“We will be running presidency together with Spain and Belgium. A huge staff is working on the technical moments of presidency within the framework of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Of course, the political priorities have not been developed in full yet. It think that among the top priorities will be care about the national minorieties within the European Union, because different national minorities are living on the territory of all three countries — Spain, Belgium and Hungary. I think this will be a very useful experience for Ukraine on its way to the EU.”
Will you pay attention to the matter of energy security along with this?
“Yes. Most of the EU members need supplies of energy carriers. Therefore they should stand on their both feet, literally speaking. Parallel systems give such a possibility. I think that this meets everyone’s interests. When there is only one source of energy carriers, nothing can be done to secure regular supplies, once technical or economic problems arise. Therefore we should diversify the supplies of energy carriers.”
Can Hungary speed up the realization of the NABUCCO project that crosses the territory of your country?
“We are ready to do so, but much depends on our partners. We have created a special post if NABUCCO ambassador, who works actively on finishing this project on time. We remain on the middle of this route. Much depends on those who are nearer to the source of supplies. It is important that partners were not only speaking the same language, but we thinking in the same way.”
Probably, the problem is that the European Union does not have a single energy policy?
“A single energy policy is hardly possible within the EU. This is explained by the fact that every country has a different need for energy carriers. In the south, in the Mediterranean countries, the problem of heating is not so acute as it is in the north of Europe. Those who support a single energy policy think that conditions in all the northern countries like Denmark, and southern countries like Spain, must be the same. I don’t think that this is fully correct. Let us take the attitude to nuclear energy. The countries treat differently this kind of energy. France supports the development of nuclear energy whereas Germany does not. If anyone considers that there will be a single policy in the future, s/he is wrong.”
THE FINANCIAL CRISIS AND BILATERAL RELATIONS
Mr. Ambassador, has the current financial crisis affected business relations between our countries? Are there any signs that the Ukrainian ivestors will leave Hungary and vice versa?
“Of course, no. I think that there will be some aftereffects, if the package that is under consideration in the Verkhovna Rada will include some additional import taxes. I understand the necessity for taking these measures because there is a huge deficit of trade balance making over one billion. This is a problem of all the Ukrainian citizens. This may have an effect upon the bilateral relations, because it will be somewhat more complicated for our exporters to work, if new customs tariffs and taxes are implemented. This will mean that there will be higher prices and not all Ukrainian consumers will be able to use their money in the way they used to.
“Speaking generally about the current world financial crisis. It should be admitted that there is a big difference between the financial systems of the US and the EU. We have always supported the idea that the state not only has the right, but it must regulate some processes. The US was thinking in a different way. Finally, the head of the Federal Reserve System found out that the US was wrong. But the consequences of this crisis are huge, because the US is the largest financial and economic system. A similar situation happened in 1973-74, when the old financial Breton-Wood system collapsed. I remember that nearly 1.5 million Americans who we staying in Europe at that time could not exchange US dollars for 15 days.
“I don’t think that this financial crisis will last for ever. After all there will be problems with certain banks or financial institutions. But the reaction of the European Union on the one hand, and that of the governments of different countries, on the other hand, was more successful than previously. This makes us believe that the common financial policy of the EU will be successful. Today we are regulating this process. As for the economic consequences, I think they will have an effect on the economy of some countries in the next 1.5 or two years.”
