The ongoing global crisis as well as problems in the eurozone make the European Union seriously consider the issue of implementing the old idea of creating the United States of Europe. Jim O’Neill, Chairman of Goldman Sachs International Asset Management also is in favor of this idea. He told the author of this article at the Bratislava Security Forum that Germany has a clear vision of the United States of Europe (USE) creation and now the question is only what Spain, Portugal, and Greece think about it and whether they want to be a part of the USE. According to the Irish economist, the Fiscal Pact endorsed at the beginning of this year is the first step towards the USE, and now it is important that Angela Merkel would support it. Recently it has been reported that the President of Germany Joachim Gauck is in favor of the United States of Europe. The Day will discuss what French people think about this idea as well as the situation in Ukraine and European prospects of our country in the exclusive interview with Bernard KOUCHNER, author of the concept “without boarders” and an ardent supporter of globalization, who made a special speech at the fifth Kyiv Security Forum “Democracy – a concept or a value?”
“German president does not have any power, unfortunately. But what about Angela Merkel? And I do not think she favors the idea. But I support it completely, since the very beginning of my political engagement. We have to develop a sort of federation taking the opportunity of a political crisis. We need to work in that direction, and first of all, in the economic field. We, the Social Democrats, were in favor of economic government of the eurozone, and also new regulations for the Central European Bank. We need to get some growth, but it is not easy. Some think that just giving money to people would solve the problem, but it does not work like this. We are a developed country, and the richest country of the world (I mean the 27 member states of the EU), so this is difficult. But the idea of the federal union with its tools like election of the president of Europe and election of the president of the parliament, and eventually the same person, I do not know.”
Did the Fiscal Pact that was signed recently become a step towards a federal union?
“Yes, this is a step in a good direction, but the process of getting the agreement was very slow.”
Because of the Germany?
“Not completely. When you have a leadership like the German or French ones, it is more complicated than just deciding and guiding the people. So, it is a difficult matter, we need the tools to work in the direction of the federal system. That is to say that you have to diminish, to decrease the level of national sovereignty. And this is difficult.”
So, does this depend on Merkel or Sarkozy as for this?
“First we will see if Sarkozy is re-elected or not. But certainly, theoretically the French Socialists are in favor of federation. But it also depends on the Socialists, because some of them cast a negative vote at the last referendum on the Constitutional Treaty. Francois Hollande was the Secretary General of the Socialist Party, and he did not react too much. This is complex, but the only escape way is to set up more Europe. More Europe means more federalism.”
Hollande declared that he would like to re-negotiate and make some changes to the Federal Pact.
“He certainly wants to get more possibility for getting growth in the Eropean Union, and especially in France. This is good, but as I told you, this is not so mechanic. I mean, if we have money, where should it go? Developing the alternative in terms of energy? Okay, this is a good idea. But it will not give enough jobs to the rest of the people in France. But yes, this is some kind of initiative we have to take. We also still have to ratify the treaty.”
Who do you think will win the presidential elections in France? Which candidate do you support?
“I do not know who will win, and I do not want to comment on my preferences, I do not have to comment on the French elections from Ukraine.”
There is an opinion that Sarkozy is better for the European Union since he signed this agreement.
“He knows all about this, yes. But Hollande knows about it as well. During the political campaign there was a trend to discuss the ways to move out of the economic crisis, and generally not to talk about Europe. They were not talking, it was not enough for the people. But in fact, opposition is very similar when it comes to big issues, like the change of the role of the bank, for example.”
Do you think the European zone will survive or not?
“We always are facing a crisis, always. This one is more deep because of the debt. But it was not Europe’s fault, it was the government, one after the other. They wanted to get money and loans, but these were French, German, Spanish, Italian governments, but not the whole European Union. It was not fault of the Brussels bureaucracy, it happened because of the way separate countries were governed.”
I have met Jim O’Neil, chairman of Goldman Sachs, at the GLOBSEC forum in Bratislava. He told me that Europe has lacking growth because Germany does not try to increase internal consumption.
“There is a position on the left, and a position on the right. The left is much more inclined to say that internal consumption is important, so we need money to restart the consumption. And as Germany is really successful in external exportation of their goods, this is not the same position, of course. We will see, but for the time being, Merkel’s policy is a good example of success. And German people have less unemployment than we have, this is very important. We must fight unemployment, this is easy to say but not easy to do.”
There have been some publications that the EU must cut the welfare states. Do you agree?
“Yes, I think so too. I would say it should rather be transformed than cut, but it is necessary to inform the people and to get more participation from the people in the social welfare system. In 20 years many things have changed, medical costs have increased greatly, and we have to explain to the people along which mechanism we have to maintain a quality facing the diseases and facing the sickness. But this is very important.”
What do you think about the current position of the EU and France in particular towards the processes that are taking place in Ukraine?
“Ukraine wants to come to the EU, but this cannot yet be done. You are also to take care of the opinion of the 27 member states (it is 28 with Chroatia). Ukraine has to change and to accept the pre-conditions. And the main pre-condition is real democracy. And as we have heard here, it was not completely done. Imprisoning former leaders of this country, and imprisoning them for very grim, strange, and not understandable reasons is not a step towards integration. I know that Tymoshenko, just as any other prime minister, is not a completely innocent person, but this is not the good way to treat her. But, this movement is important, Arsenii Yatseniuk is very important, open leader, clever people and very well informed, Ukrainian people with a very good CV, they are very responsible, the bank, the foreign affairs, etc. This is for sure a beginning of a very good movement, and they have to fulfill the pre-conditions, and this is the best way to fulfill the pre-conditions, because we need the civil society and people involved.”
In one of his interviews Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kostiantyn Hryshchenko said that there would be someone in the EU to oppose Ukraine’s integration to the EU.
“I do not know. For the time being, it is true that the Europeans do not want to enlarge the union. We have to explain to them and to solve this crisis. But you know it takes 10 years to become a part of the EU, so we have time. And I am very optimistic about this. According to my definition, even if the European Union was reserved for Europeans, what are the exact boundaries of Europe in the west, the east, and the north? It is difficult to say. It is a way to govern together, it is a new way, it is a real adventure, new initiative, new ideal, new way to live and be together, and not to be confronted stupidly like we were in the last century.”
In your opinion, what can the EU do to help, maybe through some incentives?
“This is a political adventure, and this political decision is inside the parliament, and we will see. For the time being, we have to get out of this crisis. That is not to say that we cannot offer any perspective, we surely can. But let them live together. For the time being, there is a big blockade, they do not want to talk about any enlargement, they want to talk about unemployment in their own countries.”
You have been to Ukraine a lot of times now. Has your conception of Ukraine changed?
“I know Ukraine by heart. I have been here 20 times. I was the first one in Chornobyl, I was opening the NGO “The Children of Chornobyl,” etc. It is getting much better than before. But not enough democratic, and there is also influence from your big neighbour.”
What do you think about the article published in the International Herald Tribune called “A Statesman without Borders”?
“I invented the term ‘without borderism,’ ‘the non-borderism,’ and this is the beginning of the globalization, this is the sunny side of the globalization, so let us go in that direction.”
