The acknowledgement of Palestine’s independence has resulted in deep differences in the world community. Many Western countries speak against the acknowledgement of Palestinian state in such a way, when the decision on the formation of a state is taken by the UN Security Council. The US is known to intend to block such a decision. How does Israel see the prospects of the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Does Jerusalem rely on Ukraine for support, should voting still take place at the UN General Assembly? The interview of Reuven DIN EL, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the State of Israel to Ukraine, to The Day helps find answers to these questions. The new ambassador also shared about his goals as head of the Israeli diplomatic mission to Ukraine.
“SUCH UNILATERAL DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IS NOT EFFECTIVE…”
“The question of the acknowledgement of the Palestinian state via granting it the status of a full-fledged UN member is indeed on the UN Security Council agenda. And you are right in saying that there is virtually no hope to get a ruling of the Security Council on this matter, since the US has warned more than once that it will veto any such attempts to solve this problem. Therefore, quite expectedly, the problem will be transferred to the agenda of the UN General Assembly, and this is where the main vote is to take place. In the event of a positive result the Palestinian state will also be indirectly acknowledged, although not granted UN membership. In my opi-nion, this will have negative consequences for Palestinians themselves in the first place. However, the fact of such acknowledgement will enable Palestine, for instance, to bring an action before the International Criminal Court (ICC).
“The UN has a simple majority of Arab and Islamic countries which will vote for the acknowledgement of the Palestinian state, although each nation fairly realizes that such unilateral decisions should not be passed, because that will not result in anything good. At least, one of the outcomes will be the use of this precedent in the future international policy.
“Just imagine, say, Moldova and Transnistria in our place, and that the problem would be put at the vote by the UN without as much as giving a thought to the necessity of direct negotiations between them.
“Such unilateral declaration of independence is not efficient: it will result in nothing but bloodshed.
“It’s impossible to resolve a conflict when the Big Brother comes and says, ok guys, that’s settled, here’s a new state. But what kind of state is it? It’s a state without borders, energy resources, etc. This is a state which produces nothing, yet at the same time tries to establish itself through military and terroristic actions. This is the most absurd step imaginable.”
How does your country respond to the standpoint of Russia, which supports the acknowledgement of the Palestinian state at the General Assembly of the UN?
“Yes, it does support it. In my opinion, Russia has got enough reasons to vote ‘for’ or ‘against.’ There are geopolitical, domestic, and economic reasons. Or, for one, the matter of selling its own technology and machines.
“If I were you I would ask the leaders of the Russian Federation what hides behind this. Everyone understands that such acknowledgement of Palestine will lead to nothing. Neither Russia itself nor any other normal state would like to have decisions concerning its own domestic or international relations passed by 109 votes.”
Maybe the whole problem is that unlike the US, Russia doesn’t have a strong Israeli lobby?
“I don’t think this is the case. Of course, the lobby can exert certain influence, but each nation has its own interests, and all decisions are taken with that in mind.”
“I BELIEVE UKRAINE WILL TAKE THE RIGHT DECISION”
What do you think of Ukraine’s stand in this situation? Does your country try to win Kyiv over? Last month Ukraine received your President, and quite recently, a delegation of three ministers, with the Minister of Foreign Affairs at head.
“Indeed, great work is under way at the moment, and it is aimed at clearing the matter out. It is not even the matter of Ukraine possibly having the decisive voice. Unfortunately, I have to repeat, the supporters of the acknowledgement of the Palestinian state constitute a simple majority at the UN. You should realize that there is no country in the world, Israel included, that would not support the yearning of the Palestinians for statehood. It is the matter of methods, though.
“I hope that democratic Ukraine will not follow the same logic as, say, Russia, and will approach the problem with due responsibility. And then I will have a clearer understanding of what kind of country I am working in, if it indeed is the new, democratic state with definite principles, which takes a responsible place in the world community. I think that, given the good relations existing between our countries today, Ukraine will take the right decision.
“It goes without saying that Ukraine may have its own obligations, perhaps even unwritten ones. But to the best of my knowledge, Ukraine also has common sense and responsibility. I am almost certain that the correct decision will be made. My certainty is grounded in the latest statement of the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the Palestinian question, in which Ukraine supports the idea of direct negotiations of the parties in the settlement of the conflict. I hope this stand will not waver.”
The former Mossad chief Meir Dagan said that the major threat to Israel came from Israel itself. Associated Press, via local Turkish media, quotes Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan as saying that Israel constituted a nuclear menace for Turkey. What would you say to this?
“Concerning Dagan’s statement, in this country, everyone has the right to have their own opinion, or even a couple of them. It’s not prohibited. We live in a democracy. But one should reason logically and adduce arguments to prove one’s views. You cannot go out into the street and say that everyone is a fool just because you believe this to be the case. Of course, Dagan is an expert in his field, but I would also like to note that there are the Ministry of Defense and the Security Service of Israel, which are no less competent, and they hold a different opinion. The question of Turkey is much more complicated.”
“ERDOGAN HAS BROUGHT ISLAMIST TENDENCIES TO TURKEY”
Is it caused by Turkey’s desire to play a more important role in the region?
“Without doubt. You see, you too have arrived at the true cause of such statements made by the Turkish prime minister. Starting roughly since 2000, the relations between our two countries have been cooling down and sometimes even get to the critical point. The true reason for this is that Erdogan has brought Islamist tendencies to Turkey. On the one hand, this tendency is rooted in individual psychology, and on the other, Turkey sees today as an inviting opportunity rise to domination, if not leadership, in the Islamic world. The example of Turkey-Syria relations, which have always been rather unstable, helps see that every time their development depends on one thing: if they jeopardize Turkey’s ultimate goal to replace Egypt, hitherto an incontestable authority in the Middle East, in the political arena.”
And now Turkey is trying to use the Arab Spring to its advantage.
“Yes, this is a springboard for Turkey. It is very well aware that the road to the EU is blocked once and for all. Ankara aspired for leadership and influence in the Caucasus, Central Asia, and the Balkans, but there is hardly any room left. Now it is obvious that Turkey’s goal is the Middle East. It is clearly motivated by practical interests, but there is also a touch of Islamist ideology. It is hard for us to talk with Erdogan on such premises. Although we certainly remain open for the dialog, ready to resume our former cooperation.
“Israel and Turkey used to be close partners, in the time when Turkey was a temporal state and stuck to democratic principles and values, just like Israel. After Erdogan had replaced these principles with Islamic ideology, no matter how hard Israel tries, all our efforts are inevitably to no avail.
“Today, the main concept of Turkey’s foreign policy over the recent years, no problems with the neighbors, is virtually rejected. It is still declared, but it’s not working anymore. What we can actually see is the strained relations between Turkey and Israel, Syria, and Iran. In fact, Syria and Iran are becoming Turkey’s rivals on its way to leadership in the Middle East.
“Speaking of the alleged nuclear threat, the whole matter depends on who has control over the weapons. You can give a knife to a chef who will use it to make delicious snacks. And quite a different thing will happen if you give the knife to a serial killer. Iran is a graphic example. When nuclear weapons are craved for by a country which declares day after day that its ultimate goal is to destroy our state, it makes one wonder. I think such statements should be taken into consideration when it comes to life and death.”
Does it mean that the Arab Spring has aggravated Israel’s position?
“Of course, the events in Syria, for instance, are the continuation of the same developments that are changing the landscape of the entire Middle East. I believe these events to be the domestic problems of Syria and the Syrian people. Of course, Israel welcomes every aspiration for democracy, and condemns the spread of radical Islamist regimes. But all that results in the democratization of those authoritarian regimes, all that benefits their nations is good. If the Arab Spring resulted in the democratization of our region, we would only welcome it. But unfortunately, we have every reason to fear that the developments in these countries will have a different outcome.”
“WE NEED TO STRENGTHEN AND DEVELOP JOINT PROJECTS”
What are your goals during your mission in Ukraine?
“The first goal, and it was mentioned during the recent visit to Kyiv of our Minister of Tourism Stas Misezhnikov, head of the government-to-government commission on trade and economic cooperation between Israel and Ukraine, is to achieve the pre-crisis level of economic cooperation. Needless to say, it is not our ultimate goal. It can be developed further. I don’t like vague tasks and empty talks. We must work to implement what we have agreed upon.
“We have recently made some big progress in the preparations for the signing of legal frameworks both in Ukraine and Israel. These documents are indispensable for the development of economic relations. As far as protocols and agreements go, a part of them was signed by Prime Minister Azarov during his visit to Israel. Another part is supposed to be signed during the visit of Ukraine’s president to our country. It is going to be a historic visit.”
When is it scheduled?
“Some time in early December. What concerns the trends in economic cooperation and business, Israeli IT companies have a huge interest in what is going on in this industry in Ukraine. Ukraine has highly qualified and cheap workforce. I mean programmers who work in the rapidly developing IT and high tech industries. Ukrainians’ level of training and expertise in these spheres is very high and is incomparable with other countries.
“In its turn, in its relations with our country Ukraine gives priority to the free trade area agreement. Both parties are aware that the preparation of such an important document requires bilateral consultations, thorough and comprehensive examination, and expert judgment. It is a time-consuming procedure.
“We must strengthen and develop joint projects. MASHAV is a sector in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs dealing with such projects, so it is capable to render extensive aid to the implementation of joint projects in Ukraine.
“For instance, if a farm needs to be created in Ukraine, MASHAV could help with this, as well as with the training of workers and specialists. It is not only the creation of the farm itself that matters, but also the transmission of knowledge, so Israel’s partner state could go on independently and develop the industry on its own. This is not personal contribution, and of course, this does not embrace farms alone.
“For example, today MASHAV is creating an up-to-date diagnostic center in Vinnytsia, complete with state-of-the-art medical equipment. At the same time we are training specialists who are going to work there. Notably, other medical centers of Ukraine can also use this expertise. This is not charity, this is genuine international cooperation. And all this needs to be developed, since every project of this kind benefits an entire industry, medicine in this case.
“Personally I find another theme utterly important, and I’m going to actively develop it here. Ukraine for Israel – Israelis and Jews – is something more than just another state. A large proportion of Israelis come from Ukraine. This is the homeland for the roots of religious and spiritual movements. Ukraine is the birthplace not only to the well-known Rebbe Nachman, but also to the founder of Hasidism, Baal Shem Tov. Most leaders of our state come from Ukraine. The Zionist movement took shape in Ukraine, too. Therefore, Israelis should not forget about this. It is extremely important for me to put Ukraine on the place it deserves, and make it important in terms of culture and our roots. This implies a lot of work.
“I don’t like to say banalities. If you want to do something, analyze it, and do a definite thing. For example, with all the importance attached to Ukraine, we don’t have an album or collection of photographs showing the places which have had a colossal influence on all trends of Jewish religion. I would very much like to have prepared such an album or collection by the end of my mission as an ambassador. In my opinion, here in Ukraine there are at least 200-250 places which should be brought into limelight.
“There is another theme: tourism or pilgrimage. We have lifted the visa regime. The direct consequence of this is the doubling of the number of tourists between our countries, compared to last year. Now we have to decide how we are going to develop it. It implies big money, which will be interesting for both countries. It also implies matters of cultural interest for our citizens. If tourism is the engine of both economy and spiritual development, it should be taken care of. We must promote tourism, and there is a vast field of action: air companies, your infrastructure, tourist service, and security. However, all this should be kept in balance to avoid an absurd situation when the fare and hotel prices are so high that no one would care to come. There are aspects of reality which do not promote tourism.”
“WE CANNOT SAY, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, AND THIS IS OURS”
Which exactly?
“For instance, Kyiv has splendid hotels, which quite live up to the expectations of Israeli tourists in terms of comfort. But the prices are comparable to those on Manhattan. For an average tourist who wants to visit your beautiful city it is way too expensive. There is also another extreme example, the town of Uman, where crowds of Hasidim have nowhere to stay, the only accommodation available being tents or apartments to let. Also, let’s consider Vinnytsia, a great city, but there is room for cooperation as well there. Ukraine lacks moderately priced restaurants. Even in Kyiv you will find either very expensive restaurants or fast food joints.
“All these problems have to be addressed. Spiritual values, tourism, and economy are all links of one chain. If there is a problem with hotels, there will be a problem with tourism, and we cannot tell our Ukrainian counterparts, move it guys, build more hotels, or else we’re not coming. Whatever the problem, we cannot say, ‘that is your problem, and this is ours.’ We’ve got to do this together. And then we’ll have the influx of capital, the turnover, and joint ventures. And the management will change, too.”
Not long ago Ukraine was commemorating the victims of Babyn Yar. However, at a certain TV show the host asked the audience a question: does the Ukrainian nation have to apologize to the Jews? In his time, Ukraine’s first president Leonid Kravchuk did apologize to the Israeli people for the fact that the tragedy happened on the Ukrainian land. On the other hand, Ukraine wants Israel to help us gain the acknowledgement of the Holodomor by the world community. What do you think of it?
“There is no connection between the Holodomor and Babyn Yar. Each question can only be discussed separately. It is incorrect to link such tragedies in a political exchange.
“We pay a lot of attention to the issues Ukraine would like to settle, and to the themes which are of great importance for Ukraine. Over the recent time, I have not heard any mentions of this issue from my Ukrainian counterparts. So today the recognition of the Holodomor as genocide is not on our agenda.
“We are grateful to Ukraine for the large-scale commemoration of the Babyn Yar tragedy here in Kyiv. In my view, it does not need any other recognition. The president and all the participants of those memorable days stood their crying, and commemorated the victims. This memory is the best manifestation of respect.”
“I HAVE UKRAINIAN ROOTS”
As far as I know, your parents come from Ukraine. Could you expound your Ukrainian ancestry?
“All Israeli children – and I have three – have to do a project in the 8th form which is called ‘the roots.’ This is a beautiful project, a yearly paper: kids have to make their family tree and add the names of their grandparents and great-grandparents, mentioning their birthplaces, and if there are any relatives left there. They have to do it on both maternal and paternal side.
“I have Ukrainian roots. My father comes from Komarno, Lviv oblast, and my mother is an Odesa woman. Even my elder sister was born in Odesa. I was born in Vilnius, because after the war my family moved to live with our relatives in Lithuania.
“I have already been to Odesa, but I haven’t visited Komarno yet. The last time I was there was in 1969, before the repatriation. My parents took us kids to their homes.”
What are your sources of information here in Kyiv?
“The same as any other accredited ambassador has, plus a great press service.”
What do you read to know more about the developments in our country?
“I try to read everything. I have already got an idea of the media in Ukraine. And the very fact that the first interview (and I have got a lot of requests) is to your newspaper, does mean something.” (Laughs.)
Thank you for the interview, and the best of luck with your mission.
“Thanks a lot.”
