Germany’s Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to Ukraine, Dr. Hans-Jurgen Heimsoeth, began his assignment in Ukraine in late summer of this year. Like many Ukrainians, he does not fully understand the reason behind the political crisis that exploded in early September in Ukraine. But he has learned that, because of this latest crisis, Germany is losing interest in our country.
How does one of the largest and most influential states in the European Union view our country? Why doesn’t Ukraine have any chances to get the NATO Membership Action Plan in the immediate future? These and other questions are raised in The Day’s interview with Dr. Hans-Jurgen HEIMSOETH.
“IN RECENT YEARS THE US HAS SUCCUMBED TO A KIND OF UNIPOLAR TEMPTATION”
Mr. Ambassador, since you are a historian by training and worked in the US before Ukraine, I would like to hear your opinion of why anti-American moods in Europe have been so widespread in recent years, specifically in Germany and France? After all, it was thanks to the US that the Federal Republic of Germany revived after World War II and united with the German Democratic Republic.
“I was in Berlin before coming to Ukraine. There was a guest from the United States, Barack Obama, and over 200,000 people gathered to hear him at an outdoor event without any problems. They were far from anti-American. There might have been some opponents of Bush.
“After World War II there were people in the Federal Republic of Germany who were skeptical about the United States. And there is no doubt that after the war in Iraq this critique has grown acuter to a certain extent. At the same time it would be a mistake to believe that there is a lot of anti-Americanism in Germany, which could have a negative impact on our policy.
“Like before, we remain grateful to the US not only because they brought freedom to us and to Berlin, but also because they assisted in Germany’s reunification.”
What do you make of the critical comment that I heard from a German journalist in Berlin that if the US treated the USSR during the Cold War the same way that Germany is treating Russia nowadays, East Germany would still be Soviet? To what extent does the past weigh on Germany? What initiatives that could irritate the Kremlin is it afraid to support?
“Concerning the first point, I don’t think that such comments could be made from the historical point of view. Of course, in recent years the US has succumbed to a kind of unipolar temptation. In the late 1980s the US was somewhat different. But we are still pleased that Germany became united, and this happened to a large extent thanks to the good cooperation between the then federal chancellor of Germany and the then president of the US, George H. W. Bush.
“I cannot agree with the view that is prevalent here that Germany’s policy depends to some extent on Russia because of some kind of trauma. Moscow was my first assignment. At the time, an ‘ice age’ existed in the relations between Germany and Russia. It was connected to Germany’s unwillingness to support unreservedly the arms drive of the Soviet Union, which was expanding its military arsenal with SS-20 missiles. Together with the Americans, Germany resisted and threatened to increase its own arsenal. Since that time Germany has always carried out a policy vis-a-vis Russia that would meet Germany’s interests and the interests of pan-European security.
“Now Poland has become a member of NATO, and Germany’s Minister of Defense Volker Ruhe was among the first to write this goal on his flags. Germany also supported the application of the Baltic states for NATO membership.
“This narrow-minded view, according to which Germany forms its policies solely on the basis of dependence on Russian gas, is wrong.”
THE MAP AND GERMANY’S CONDITIONS FOR NATO ENLARGEMENT
The Stratford analytical center recently published an article explaining Germany’s refusal to give the MAP to Ukraine and Georgia by your country’s fears that NATO will not be able to fulfill its duties to these countries concerning their defense and that additional financial obligations will be required. Do you think these explanations of your country’s position are reasonable?
“NATO enlargement is reasonable if three things are done. It must strengthen Ukraine’s security. It must strengthen the security of all the NATO member states. And it should strengthen or assist in strengthening pan-European security. I am not the person to determine when these conditions are fulfilled and whether this will be done.”
But German politicians are saying that Ukraine, a neighbor of Russia, can prove to the Russians by its example the attractiveness of European values and assist in making that country more pro-European. The British politician Paddy Ashdown, who heads the EU-Russia analytical center, said in an interview with The Financial Times on Oct. 27 that Europe should abandon its illusions concerning Russia because Russia’s current leadership, as many Ukrainian experts think, does not share European values. Ukraine’s leadership does. Many Ukrainian experts believe that giving the MAP to Ukraine as well as a prospect to become an EU member would strengthen the leadership’s resolution to follow the Euro-integration course. If this does not happen, there is a risk that Ukraine may find itself in a gray zone or even in a Cold War, as Germany was in its time.
“I don’t see why this should happen. At the moment Ukraine’s cooperation with NATO is developing very closely. Ukraine takes part in all NATO operations. It is fulfilling the important Ukraine-NATO target plan. Military cooperation with Germany alone includes nearly 40 yearly events. In the European Union we are getting ready to develop an agreement with Ukraine concerning the free trade zone. In several days a dialogue regarding visa questions is beginning. It seems to us that Ukraine’s attempts to get closer to the EU have recently cooled down somewhat. Ukraine’s ratings have worsened in some important spheres, specifically the question of the manner of conducting business and fighting corruption. And the key to Ukraine’s future is in Kyiv, not in Brussels.”
But you can see that the Ukrainian government — the president and the prime minister — have asked for the MAP, which, in their opinion, will stimulate implementation of reforms. In the spring, when a delegation of the North Atlantic Council was visiting Ukraine, the prime minister gave the following response to the question: What assistance does Ukraine need? She said: Give us the MAP. Why is Germany afraid to take a risk and give the MAP to Ukraine? After all, this is not NATO membership. The MAP, in contrast to the Target Plan, is a document obliging both Ukraine and NATO.
“You know that in December the first assessment of the results achieved after the Bucharest summit will be made. In general, I have the impression that since that time the Ukrainian side has not done anything special with regard to this. It appears that the information campaign has not grown to the necessary level. It is also not clear what financial support the army will have for next year. You are asking the question in the same way you did three months ago. But many things have changed since then. The world’s financial crisis has started and it has affected Ukraine. Starting this past summer, Ukraine has been experiencing a very profound political crisis, the biggest one since the Orange Revolution. There is no clear line, and the executive power has split over the questions of domestic, foreign, and economic policies.”
But a Ukrainian law says that the end goal of our country is to join NATO, and this law has never been abolished. And the game around NATO takes place only during elections, when some opposition parties use this issue to come to power.
“NATO has given a clear answer. Everything that was defined in Bucharest remains in force.”
What do you think of the proposal of some German politicians who announced a fourth condition for Ukraine to get the MAP at a meeting with Ukrainian experts in Berlin — that this step should be supported by the majority of Ukrainian MPs after the early elections?
“I don’t know anything about any additional conditions. The position expressed in Bucharest has been confirmed several times. We believe a large part of the population as well as the elites must support this.”
Mr. Ambassador, how is the implementation of the navigation plan for Ukraine’s advancement towards NATO, concerning which Federal Chancellor Angela Merkel and President Viktor Yushchenko came to an understanding in Kyiv on July 21, progressing?
“I’ve already said that we have very close cooperation with Ukraine. We have many joint activities with the Ukrainian army. Negotiations between our chief army headquarters will take place soon. Ukraine’s Minister of Foreign Affairs Volodymyr Ohryzko recently visited Berlin. As before, we remain in close contact.”
“UKRAINE BELONGS TO EUROPE”
Let’s talk about Ukraine’s European prospects. Why, in your opinion, are the old European countries unwilling to give Kyiv any hint of a membership prospect? Does Ukraine need to follow the example of one of the Balkan countries, which received a prospect after signing the Agreement on Stabilization and Association for reaching this goal?
“I don’t think we should compare different countries. It is important for Ukraine to show clear movement toward the European Union. Now I don’t see any of this. We have a clear schedule of movement. And I think it is important for us to arrive quickly at drafting an agreement on free trade.”
Why was Germany against declaring, in the joint statement made on Sept. 9 at the EU-Ukraine summit, that Ukraine is a European state? Instead, the text stated “a European country” — on Germany’s initiative, according to French sources.
“You know that Ukraine is called a European country in the preamble of this agreement on association. While discussing this project in Brussels, we supported the proposal made by Sweden’s foreign minister. It seems to me that the question whether to call Ukraine a European country or a European state is equal to the question: what is the gender of angels? Only experts from the European Union can find any sense here. In my opinion, Ukraine belongs to Europe. I will do everything in order to continue the policies that are linked to this.
“I would like to note another thing. There is hardly any other European country, including even Russia and Belarus, where foreign embassies are treated in such a bureaucratic fashion. In order to arrange an ordinary meeting in Kyiv or in the regions, one has to write letters to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Nothing of the kind exists practically in any other country. To me, this is a vestige of the past.”
“THE POSITIVE IMPRESSION OF UKRAINE IS GRADUALLY FADING AND DISAPPEARING”
How does Germany view Ukraine? What do Germans say about Ukraine?
“The very positive impression of Ukraine that emerged after the Orange Revolution proved that Ukraine had become a country fully professing European values and which became democratic on its own, from the inside. But now this positive impression is gradually fading and disappearing. This negative attitude is undoubtedly fuelled by the political squabbling the details of which have not been established yet.”
What impact has all this had on our bilateral relations, taking into account the world’s financial and economic crisis?
“We get questions from politicians asking us whether they should come here. We encourage them, telling them they should, in spite of everything. But along with this I hear different opinions being aired by the Presidential Secretariat and your parliament. We recently had a visit from a German-Ukrainian interparliamentary group. Then we heard that your parliament had been dissolved. The German side of that interparliamentary group made it clear that it is impossible, and even unbelievable, for any parliament to remain inactive until the new parliament starts fulfilling its duties. This is how we understand democracy.
“Speaking about economic relations, I have to say that our interest has weakened here as well. This is connected with three essential reasons: first of all, the growth of corruption, the weakening of economic growth, and the fact that some companies are becoming afraid of the political crisis in Ukraine.
“We are happy that in the past two months we have managed to involve a large number of cultural and creative forces to hold the Weeks of German Culture. But we clearly understand that our political and economic relations are the foundation. If the economic reforms resume, I believe that the great opportunities for German-Ukrainian relations will revive as well.”
