New Ambassador of Georgia to Ukraine Mikheil UKLEBA promptly responded to a request from The Day to give an interview to our newspaper. He did not ask to send him questions in advance, as it is usually done in communication between ambassadors and the media. Georgian Ambassador explained his approach in a following way: “It is a great honor for me that today I am giving an interview to your newspaper, which is so popular in your country. Taking into account the policy of openness and transparence that prevails in our country, for me, as a new ambassador to your beautiful country, working with the media is one of the most important missions.”
Mr. Ukleba, do you agree with the interpretation given by the current Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, who was the President of Russia in 2008, of how the war began and who was responsible for starting it?
“The war itself began not in 2008, but back in 1992, when there were conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Those actions have been approved on the part of Russia. This war was a result of the aggressive and insidious policies that Russia carried out against Georgia.
Mikheil UKLEBA: “This war was the result of the aggressive and insidious policies that Russia carried out against Georgia”
“This was especially accurately described in the report of the Tagliavini international commission. And the facts speak for themselves: today 20 percent of Georgia’s territory is occupied. Russia still ignores the international community, it does not perform the decision of August 12, 2008. The Sarkozy-Medvedev agreement included a part on withdrawal of the Russian armed forces from the territory of Georgia and their return to pre-war positions. This has not been fulfilled. Refugees still can’t return to their homes. An international mechanism of security in the region has not yet been established. International observers are not allowed to the conflict zone. And that could work for the benefit of all parties, including Russia.”
By the way, Medvedev made a statement that the “recognition of the fact of what had happened” is the ultimate condition for the resumption of diplomatic relations between the two countries. What is your opinion on that?
“For its part, Georgia has made a step towards reconciliation by creating a two-way negotiation format with Russia. From our side it is a special representative of the Prime Minister of Georgia for Relations with Russia Zurab Abashidze, who once was an ambassador to Moscow, the EU, and NATO. And from Russia it is the Deputy Minister Grigory Karasin. As a result of this cooperation we can see some small improvements. Georgian wine and mineral water appeared again on the Russian market. We hope that Russia will cancel the visa regime the way we did it first unilaterally. Let’s see where this process will lead us.”
“RUSSIA MUST FULFILL THE INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS IT INCURRED ON AUGUST 12, 2008”
Georgian Prime Minister Bidzina Ivanishvili in an interview to the Moscow bureau of the “Voice of America” said that now there is no reason for having a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin. What reasons are needed for such meeting to take place?
“There must be certain results. And the moves should come from both sides. When 20 percent of its territory is occupied and Georgia is still showing its good will, it should be appreciated by Russia. After all, Russia is a member of the Security Council of the UN, it has its own responsibility. We hope that our government will take all the necessary steps to ensure the improvement of these relations and to receive an objective assessment of the events that took place in August 2008. We are open for cooperation, for a constructive dialogue with Russia. But so far it seems that the conditions are not quite right to have a meeting of the leaders of the two countries.”
What would the right conditions be? Should Russia acknowledge the fact that it was a mistake to recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states?
“Russia must fulfill the international obligations it incurred on August 12, 2008. We started bilateral negotiations with Russia without any preconditions.”
By the way, after the reports in the news referring to Abashidze that Georgia plans to reach the second stage of normalization of relations with Russia in September and October, some commentators on the Georgia Online website asked a question about what was the first stage all about. What can you say about it?
“Apparently, what it meant is the beginning of the restoration of economic relations, for example, the admission of Georgian products to the Russian market. Let’s see where it leads.”
Many associate the economic progress with the fact that after the parliamentary elections in October last year Saakashvili lost power in the country and has practically no control over the situation…
“This is the approach of the new government which launched the negotiations with Russia. This is in short all I can say on the matter.”
But the main stumbling block for the development of relations with Russia is the fact that 20 percent of Georgia’s territory is occupied and there must be some progress here in order for the relations between the two countries to develop well. Is that right?
“The independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia was recognized only by Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Nauru. This says a lot. The fact of the recognition of independence on the territory of the former Soviet Union does not contribute to the security in our region, because the precedent of recognition of some parts of Georgia: Abkhazia and South Ossetia creates great danger to the entire region from the point of view of stability, also for the Russian Federation, which consists of 80 constituents.”
What lessons will Georgian elite learn from these events?
“This war was sure a good lesson for us. It showed us that the war brings nothing good either to the state, or to the separatists or those who encourage separatism, or those who commit aggression.”
It’s been five years since the war in Georgia. What is the public opinion about those events in the country?
“Georgia made an important decision not to use any force. We want to peacefully resolve the conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. And the main thing here is that the reforms in Georgia must be attractive also for these constituents. In this regard, country’s integration to the European Union would be very useful. On June 22 we completed negotiations on the free trade area, part of the Association Agreement with the EU. We hope to initial the agreement at the summit of Eastern Partnership in Vilnius. If we finish the reforms, after the entry into force of this agreement, GDP will grow by 300 million dollars.”
THIS IS THE WAY SOME RUSSIANS VIEW THE 2008 GEORGIA-RUSSIA WAR. BUT RUSSIAN PREMIER DMITRY MEDVEDEV THINKS: “IT IS A GLARING MISTAKE THAT TURNED INTO A WAR CRIME” / Cartoon from Gleb Pavlovsky’s FACEBOOK page
“WE HAVE ONLY ONE ALTERNATIVE – EUROPEAN AND EURO-ATLANTIC INTEGRATION”
Why do you have such confidence that this agreement will bring such growth of GDP for your country? For example, in Ukraine, according to various estimates, in the first stage the state will bear losses.
“We have the appropriate analysis. With the FTA agreement entering into force, Georgia’s export to the EU will increase by 12 percent and the import respectively by 7.5 percent. These numbers are real for us.”
What concerns membership in NATO, do you see any prospects of entering into this military-political organization, given the fact that 20 percent of the country’s territory is occupied?
“We have only one alternative – European and Euro-Atlantic integration. We now go along this path and, of course, the more actively we will be involved in the international integration process, the more it will contribute to the development of our country. It should also help us in the restoration of the territorial integrity. That’s why we began negotiations with Russia to establish a civilized dialogue with this country and we hope that this dialogue will be successful. We already have some results but they are not very significant yet.”
In your opinion, has Europe learned a lesson from the fact that in 2008 in Bucharest Ukraine and Georgia were not granted MAP?
“As you know, statements have been made that military forces prepared for this war. Russian leaders have said for several times in the past years that, it turns out, the Russians were preparing for this war. Of course, everyone learned their lessons from this, both the international community and the European Union, because the EU was actively involved in the process of resolving the conflict. The EU played a major role in the settlement of the Russian-Georgian war in August 2008. That’s why it was a good lesson for them as well.”
“WE ARE GRATEFUL TO UKRAINE FOR THE SUPPORT IT PROVIDED DURING THE WAR”
Did this war affect in any way the relations between Ukraine and Georgia?
“We are grateful to Ukraine for the support it provided during the war. We will never forget, when your president, along with other presidents, came to support us. It was a truly difficult time and Ukraine was with Georgia. We will always remember this. We will also remember how Ukrainian helicopter pilots helped our refugees from Abkhazia in 1993. Many Georgian refugees were sheltered in Ukraine. We appreciate it a lot. It was very important for us.”
We know that recently many Ukrainian ministers and deputy prime ministers went to Georgia with official visits and vice versa. And when can we expect an official visit of the head of the Georgian government to Ukraine?
“We want to conduct our visits on a higher level. But given that in October we will have the presidential elections, we must take this fact into account. The presidential race has, in fact, begun already. We are working on this and I hope that in the near future such visit will take place. The future will tell whether it will be a visit of the Prime Minister or the President.”
But after the changes made to the Constitution in your country the Prime Minister is the higher authority, right?
“Yes, that’s true. The status of the Prime Minister has been enhanced and he becomes the first person according to the new structure. But this will enter into force only after the presidential election.”
ON THE “NEW TOLERANCE” AND NON-SELECTIVE JUSTICE
By the way, preparing for this interview with you, I came across a report on Radio Liberty that Georgia joined the list of the most criminal states of Europe. How can you comment on this?
“This is the old information. Indeed, there used to be 24,000 prisoners in Georgia. Now, about half of the prisoners have been released. And despite this fact the criminal situation has not worsened. At one time we had implemented policy of strict criminal justice, called ‘zero tolerance.’ Hardly any acquittals were brought in. In other words, the opinion of the prosecutor and the judge fully matched. Now, we are having a major reform of the judicial system and justice.”
When your former prime minister was arrested, many people in Ukraine began to draw parallels with the events in Ukraine…
“The litigation on the case of the former prime minister is now in progress. But I must say that the new government also arrested the members of the government: Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs, a group of employees of the Ministry of Agriculture. It is not selective justice.”
How do you like Ukraine after working in the two other states you just mentioned?
“Bulgaria, Georgia, Ukraine are all Black Sea Coast states. Many things are common. Of course, you cannot compare Ukraine and China, where I was the first Ambassador and opened the embassy of Georgia there. Very interesting processes occur there, a new state is being born.”
How come China is a new state, it’s been around for more than 2,000 years...
“It is a new state in political terms. It is developing. This is already a country with market economy, but with a socialist tinge. Bulgaria is interesting in that it has gone along the same path to the European Union, we are now taking to integrate in it. That’s why the processes that take place in Bulgaria after joining the EU and NATO are very interesting for Georgia, as well as, I think, for Ukraine. Therefore, the lessons I’ve learned in Bulgaria and China might be useful in Ukraine to some extent as well.”
You have probably heard the opinion of some experts, who say that if Ukraine signs the Association Agreement and implements reforms, the rest of the CIS countries will choose this path. What do you think about it?
“That’s true, many post-Soviet countries are now closely watching the process of the European integration. It is very important that Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova would be successful in that. Even considering the fact that there is crisis in the European Union at the moment, I do not see any other alternative. This is the best thing the mankind has invented so far. That’s why we should aspire to that. We gladly cheer for your country so that the summit in Vilnius would be successful not only for Ukraine, but also for Georgia and Moldova, as well as for all the countries that would want to follow into our footsteps in the future.”
What do people in Georgia think about the Customs Union, which offers great preferences?
“Each country has a right to choose its way. For us, for Georgia, there is no other alternative.”
“WE SHOULD BE PROUD THAT OUR PEOPLES HAVE THE DESIRE TO BE INDEPENDENT AND FREE”
“We have a lot in common. And one of such things is the desire of the Georgians and the Ukrainians for independence. This is very important. We should be proud that our peoples have the desire to be independent and free. A country cannot develop when it is not free, when it has no choice. Every country has to make its choice: right or wrong, it will be the choice made by this country.”
In this regard, many people in Ukraine have different opinions on the choice Georgian people made in the last parliamentary elections. Some people think that Georgia cannot break away from the Soviet past.
“It’s been only 23 years since Georgia restored its independence. And as a former ambassador to China, I will say that for the Chinese 23 years is nothing, they start the count from 50 years. When Zhou Enlai was asked what he thought of the French Revolution, he replied that not enough time had passed to be able to estimate it. That’s why for our generation, which suffered a lot, especially in Georgia – during the Civil War, war in Abkhazia and South Ossetia – there was a time when Russia shut off the electricity, undermined gas pipelines, power lines and in winter the country remained without electricity and heating. We’ve had that. And of course, we would like to send space shuttles in the outer space in 23 years from now. But things don’t happen that easily, we are talking about the transformation in people here. It is a very complicated process, because people, not only the government, the president, but people themselves have to go through this. I believe that what is happening in Georgia now will contribute to the development of our society. Civilized democracy means responsibility to the society. If we are not accountable to the society, then nothing will work out. It depends on everyone. We should strive only for freedom and independence – it is very good, but we have to stand for it. Plus, we also must earn it. And when we will be doing this, we will be successful and will take a worthy place in the community we are now trying to join – the European community.”
