We have been talking to the Ambassador of Germany to Ukraine Hans-Jurgen Heimsoeth during the whole year. He is a very attentive reader of The Day. We are watching the situation in Germany, which is one of the leading countries in Europe, with great interest. On the New Year’s eve we discussed in what way the results of the EU-Ukraine summit are treated by the Berlin officials, and what their opinion is on the proposal concerning the creation of the trepartite consortium on Ukraine’s gas transportation system, which was announced by the Deputy Prime Minister Andrii Kliuiev at the summit.
“I believe your newspaper interpreted the things correctly. You said it was neither a failure, nor a success. This is very important and pleasing, I am glad that the text was agreed upon. But this cannot be called success if compared to what might have been possible. Therefore, the main task now is to go on with the process of getting Ukraine closer to the EU based on what was achieved at the summit.”
What does a successful summit mean to you?
“This summit can only be truly successful if the agreement is signed and the procedure of ratification is started. In general, it is already a very good thing that the text was agreed upon. Let us hope that the initialing of this text will take place in the nearest future. But this will also happen due to the fact that at the present time all of the opposition in Ukraine, including its famous pri-soners, unanimously supports the Association Agreement. But Rompuy made it clear that certain political conditions are required for the signing. And this is only up to the go-vernment of Ukraine.”
What about the proposals that were announced by the Prosecutor General of Ukraine, the ones about the final stages of preparing the new Criminal Procedure Code, can they be considered steps in the right direction?
“I suppose it is extremely important for the new Criminal Procedure Code to be put in action as soon as possible. But people need to clearly understand that European standards have to be implemented in it. Sometimes I have a feeling that the principles of the judiciary independence as we see it, are not always followed while shaping the judiciary system in Ukraine. First of all, it is about reforming the role of the law-enforcement institutions, such as the public prosecutor’s office and SBU: they need to shift from the Soviet mo-del to the European one. And I consider what was called the ‘personnel problem’ during Soviet times to be a serious matter, and it should be given more attention. By this I assume that people who think in the European way need to take the relevant posts.”
You have probably had a chance to see for yourself that Ukrainians are not satisfied with the judiciary system and lots of other things. Do you think it will be easier to influence the Ukrainian government when Ukraine has the Association Agreement, or when it is in the “grey zone”?
“By participating in this summit the European Union has clearly stated that it still keeps being very interested in Ukraine’s getting closer to the EU. If this agreement is ratified, it will mean that Ukraine will receive a kind of treaty the EU had never had with any other country before. Ukraine will get as close to the European Union as it is possible without being part of it. But naturally, there is a set of conditions that need to be completed before the agreement is signed.”
Should the government release the prisoners, or what exactly should be done by the Ukrainian side?
“I suppose this has been talked over many times. The processes play an important role here. We hope that the next elections will be conducted in an honest and free way. Reforms you mentioned earlier are also necessary, I mean the reforms in the area of the criminal procedure law. But in my opinion, it is gravely important for Ukraine to at least keep within its own legal framework. It looks like nobody here is bothered by the fact that the decisions made by the parliament are on the verge of unconstitutional.”
If I got what you are saying right, Germany will make the decision on signing the Association Agreement only after the parliament election takes place in October 2012?
“I still think signing is theoretically possible.”
And does the ratification depend on the fairness of elections?
“The ratification is a longer procedure that cannot be completed in undertime. If the elections are not carried out according to the European standards, there is no way I can imagine the successful process of ratification.”
These days the entire world commemorates the great European, Vaclav Havel. He said in one of his last interviews, “Russian society holds a fight with the most stringent form out of all known forms of post-communism, with a special combination of old stereotypes and the new mafia business environment.” Unfortunately, the same statement with some amendments can be applied to Ukraine as well. Do you think that the West should take this fact into consideration and apply more effort in order to help our country overcome this disease through strengthening of relations and visioning a clear European perspective?
“Ukraine needs to implement the crucial reforms on its own. The existence of very powerful forces in the economic area is not the problem. The problem is that the political system cannot get rid of the influence of these forces. We need more clarity. This is the main task of the mass media. In our country every asset, every credit, every report about politicians’ and officials’ business trips are made public. We need to know the truth about the sources of financing of the parties. Concerning reforms in other areas, unfortunately we must admit that the experience the European Union is trying to pass on, is not always accepted. I can give you just one example, the administrative reform. If the country is not ready to receive the experience, nobody should be so surprised because of the considerable difference between the reforms in the countries of Central and Eastern Europe and what we see in Ukraine. Such countries as Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia used the projects offered within the Twinning program with the most efficiency. And in Ukraine you can see that only in some separate cases. The reason is, there is no political support that would insure success to these projects. And only in case the experience we are offering is implemented, we will talk about the successful modernization.”
Did you mean Ukrainian oligarchs when you said that there were powerful forces in the economic area that stand in the way of reforms?
“What is defined as oligarchs in general here is not a problem. The problem is the direct influence on politics. Politicians need to represent the people and carry out such kind of politics that would benefit the people. Is this possible if the politicians or their families clearly have their own economic interests? I highly doubt that.”
Then, maybe Europe needs more patience in the relations with Ukrainian government for it to carry out its European choice? Because most of the ordinary Ukrainians want to live by the European standards.
“Of course, it is clear that right now we are in the middle of this process. And we can only advise Ukrainians to make the right choice, I mean, choose people that are able to take Ukraine on the path that leads to the European standards.”
On December 21 Deputy Prime Minister Andrii Kliuiev announced different approaches towards the creation of the tripartite consortium that would manage and modernize Ukraine’s gas transportation system. The shares of Russia and the EU are 33 percent, and the share of Ukraine is 34 percent. Is Germany interested in joining a consortium like this?
“I think that it would be wonderful if Ukrainian side could find an opportunity to communicate with West European companies. The negotiations with Russia on this subject have been going on for months. As far as I know, there has not been a single dialog of this kind with German companies. If you cook something with Russia, and then serve in to the West European companies, you cannot just expect them to ‘eat’ it. That is exactly the reason why the idea of the consortium failed in 2002.”
At that time the main ideologists of the consortium were chancellor Schroeder and presidents Putin and Kuchma.
“But nowadays Western companies are not in better conditions. That is why it is a priority that the issue is discussed with them first. Though, the possibility of this consortium can be imagined.”
And discussed?
“I am not the CEO of an energy company, therefore all I can do is imagine this happening.”
You have probably heard that during the press conference President Yanukovych accused Europe of leading an inconsistent energy policy. According to him, some countries of the EU support the South Stream, and an underground gas terminal is being built in Serbia. What can you say about this?
“Serbia is not a part of the EU yet. And in the European Union it is up to companies to decide which projects they are going to participate in. Some lay their accounts with Nabucco, the others – with the South Stream. The EU does not play the main decision-making role here. Its primary goal is to diversify the sources and routes. Ukraine can also contribute to the energy safety of the whole Europe, that is why the negotiations about the future of the Ukrainian GTS, in which the most outstanding figures will take place, is so important. Ukraine’s entering the European
Energy Community was an important step towards the EU. If Ukraine decided to quit it, that would be a threat to the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement.”
So, at first we need to start the negotiations with Western companies, and only then with Gasprom?
“It should be done simultaneously.”
What were the most significant events that have happened in Ukraine and in the world in general this year?
“If you talk about the events in the world, I would say that it was the second largest nuclear catastrophe after Chornobyl in Fukushima. It made it clear for everybody that catastrophes that are theoretically possible, do happen sometimes. This led to a re-orientation in the area of energy politicy in Germany. I suppose that many countries will feel the consequences of what happened in Fukushima for a long time. Any nuclear catastrophe that happens next will be the end of nuclear energy.
“And if you talk about Ukraine, the impression we get concerning the cases against former political leaders cannot be underestimated. We see those cases as political persecutions. They raise doubt that Ukraine is strong in its desire to move towards the EU.
“Thanks to the fact that Ukraine hosts Euro-2012, it is given a great chance to significantly consolidate the image of the country and finally prove that it is part of Europe. And these persecutions are a threat to this opportunity.”
Is this a reason why the German national football team decided not to be quartered in Ukraine during Euro-2012?
“As far as I know, even before the drawing procedure took place, the German national team chose a place situated near Gdansk. But they were glad when they received the news that they will play some games in Lviv and Kharkiv. Actually, the difference in distance while flying from Gdansk to Lviv and to Wroclaw is not so big.”
What publications of The Day did you remember the most during this year?
“The Day often publishes interesting interviews and has a firm stand. And personally I, as a historian, like that the newspaper often refers to the past of the country. Even if one does not always share the opinion of The Day, it still is an important landmark in Ukraine’s information space.”
Where are you going to spend Christmas, the New Year, and Orthodox Christmas?
“In Berlin. And then I will go to Austria for a week to ski. And I will celebrate the old-style Orthodox New Year here in Ukraine.”
What can you wish Ukrainians in the New Year?
“Be brave!”
