Co-Rapporteur of the Parliamentary Assembly at the Council of Europe Hanne Severinsen has announced that she will no longer be monitoring Ukraine. She explained that she intends run in the next elections to the Danish parliament; therefore she cannot represent her country in the PACE. Ms. Severinsen has handed over all her proceedings to her colleague Renate Wohlwend, who will become the chief PACE-rapporteur on Ukrainian issues. How long will the process of Ukraine’s monitoring last? Which obligations has Ukraine still not fulfilled? These and other questions are raised in The Day ’s exclusive interview with Hanne Severinsen, who has been monitoring Ukraine since 1997 with respect to the implementation of obligations undertaken by Kyiv after joining the Council of Europe.
Ms. Severinsen, could you evaluate your work as rapporteur?
I have finished, yes, but the task as such is not finished. Successful? I think it’s up to others to judge. It has taken more time than I had imagined. Anyway, Ukraine has improved in European standards, thanks partly to the Council of Europe.
So, you consider monitoring to be an effective instrument?
Yes. Other countries have been under monitoring as well, especially new democracies that emerged from the authoritarian communistic dictatorship. Some trends still exist, and some “power” persons have doubts about European values. So it has been a difficult transformation not just for Ukraine. In the monitoring committee we have an open dialogue among all political groups. Ukrainian members of the delegation have always recognized that the Council of Europe had the right to point out Ukraine’s shortcomings. Back in Kuchma’s time it was hard to get heard by the authorities, who said that we should not interfere in “internal affairs.” But for the Council of Europe, state democracy, human rights, and rule of law are not “internal affairs.”
How long will this process continue?
Our attention will continue. A report will be drafted and sent to the government for reply. A discussion in the assembly will probably take place in January 2009. And then it’s up to the Assembly to decide to end the monitoring. And I will watch this from the outside.
You mentioned earlier that Ukraine has not fulfilled all of its obligations. Which ones?
The judiciary and the Prosecutor’s Office are the most important. Public broadcasting is also needed. But Ukraine is a democracy. You have had a change of government in a peaceful way three times. But a new election law and new election system are needed. Ukraine also needs changes to the Constitution. There should be a clear distribution between the government, president, and parliament.
Some Ukrainian mass media commented on the recent conference where Europe pointed out what kind of constitution Ukraine should adopt.
I understood the message from the conference as being that Ukraine should have ownership of the process. You must find your own system. And I advise you to look around Europe and see which system will be good for Ukraine.
Has the Council of Europe also made suggestions to all the European countries, including the old ones?
Many of the Council of Europe states have had assistance with drafting their constitutions. I guess that you are talking about Russia. Here, unfortunately, there is a big difference. Ukraine has been in a dialogue. Russia does not want to listen! The last eight years of Putin have been a road back to a more authoritarian style. For an example of European influence, you could look at the Balkan states.
And the Baltic states...
And the Baltic states as well.
Can one assume that the Council of Europe will make strong suggestions to Russia?
We made a very strong report some years ago. The Russians said that they would try to fulfill them, but they did not succeed, and there is still a long way to go with Russia.
How should the Council of Europe deal with Belarus?
This is not an easy question. We have to have contact with the oppositional forces, and we shall promote scholarship and exchange programs. The opposition forces should unite.
Do you think that the current Ukrainian government has a strong political will to fulfill these obligations?
The problem will be with a very small majority. Cooperation between the government and the opposition is needed. The system requiring the presence of 226 MPs to pass all decisions is a very complicated one. In most countries, only a majority is needed for the usual legislation. This allows MPs to stay abroad as long as an equal number is present in the Verkhovna Rada. I hope that you will adopt the same system.
Karpachova has requested that monitoring be continued in Ukraine until there is a norm regulating the activity of the National Court and European court.
The implementation of the European Court’s decisions is very important.
The number of cases that were brought before the European Court increased last year.
Ukraine is not the worst state in this sense. But there is an increase of cases, which is worrying and will cause problems next year.
What are the main criteria for ending the monitoring of Ukraine?
The judiciary, the Prosecutor’s Office, public broadcasting, an independent system, election law, clear constitution — there are many items. The election system has spoiled the political system; the intention of the proportional system was the opposite. I hope you find a better system. An independent media is needed. You have pluralism, but you need independence and better access to what is going on in the administration.
You were a monitor in Ukraine for 10 years. Could you give us your general impression? How has Ukraine improved, or not, and what tendencies will there be in the future?
Ukraine experienced an exciting period during the Orange Revolution. It has also experienced drawbacks and disappointment because everyday life politics is not as successful as people had dreamed about. But Ukraine has experienced free elections, and now everybody should look forward and not rattle on about things in the past. Some people are tired of the political life, but that is a problem also in Western democracies. The economy has improved. This is a challenge. In the last two years the struggle for power has made the Verkhovna Rada unable to adopt necessary legislation. But the Ukrainian people seem to be able to find a way out anyway.
What about the genocide?
I think the most important thing is to recognize what happened and to have more research and more knowledge. And it should be stressed that this was a tragedy for all citizens of the former Soviet Union.
What do you feel now, leaving Ukraine?
I will miss it, so I will return in other capacities and also as a tourist. I had never expected to monitor for so long, but everything must come to an end. New monitoring will take place, and I am confident that they will do their best. We now have the office of the Council of Europe. That will constantly help. I also want to stress that all countries are under monitoring, so after PACE’s monitoring you will be part of other kinds of monitoring.
What would you like to take back with you?
I will take with me every rich period of my life, and I will never stop being interested in what is going on.
What are your plans?
I will have more time to reflect and work in my garden. But I will always have time to discuss Ukraine’s development.
