A phone-in with the well-known Russian opposition leader and public figure Irina KHAKAMADA took place on the eve of the unexpected turn in the political situation in Ukraine — the formation of an “anti-crisis” coalition. Today many of her comments seem prophetic.
The Day was interested in learning Ms. Khakamada’s opinion on the G8 summit, the situation in Russian society, and whether democratic changes are possible in Russia. Naturally, we asked a number of questions about developments in Ukraine, especially since Ms. Khakamada recently visited Kyiv to launch her book Sex in Big-Time Politics .
“I fell in love with Kyiv. You have an extraordinary spirit of freedom, tolerance, and kindness. Your streets show an altogether different picture. I only wish you wouldn’t repeat our mistakes, with the elites playing their games, which are not only disappointing the people but destroying the country,” the Russian oppositionist, who is not too sure of Ukraine’s rosy prospects.
“Do you think the leaders of the world’s leading states will dare tell Vladimir Putin during the G8 summit about Russia’s undemocratic tendencies?”
“The G8 is by its nature a gentlemen’s club that privately discusses important issues. The G8 meetings are not official summits with a clear-cut agenda, speeches, etc. There is a short public part and a long non-public one. I think that the leaders of the developed countries will manage to show Russia (in spite of its being the G8 president) during the nonpublic stage that theirs is a gentlemen’s club, a club of democratic states. Meanwhile, Russia, contrary to its words, is moving in an entirely different direction. I think the democratic leaders will succeed in making their stand felt.”
“How would you assess the current situation in Russian society?”
“Russian society is now stable. On the one hand, it is displeased with many things, but on the other hand it is not prepared to struggle resolutely for its rights. In particular, Russians are dissatisfied with poverty and the unbridgeable gap between the poor and the rich. Still, they are happy that their wages and pensions are growing, even though they are doing so little by little. This suits many. I would call it stability in which some protest and discontent — so far only vague — is brewing.”
“Putin’s consistently high popularity is ample proof of this.”
“The root cause of this is the elimination of a political and media field in Russia. No new politicians will emerge if the door to the political market remains closed. The now shunned political democrats in fact were raised in conditions of freedom in the early 1990s. If not for that freedom, we would still be listening to people like Gorbachev and Chernenko. That was the only way democrats could appear. If we want to have an alternative, we must have freedom. But there is no freedom. For this reason, Putin will enjoy eternally high popularity ratings.”
“The Russian population takes quite a dim view of the words ‘democracy’ and ‘reforms.’ Do you think it is possible to restore the true meaning of these words to the consciousness of Russian citizens?”
“The true meaning can be restored if this is done by means of non- political methods, without politicians. In other words, you have to show that the market, freedom, and democracy go hand in hand with decent pensions, wages, education, and medical care. If we manage to prove that democracy brings progress and that a globalized world is interesting, while any national phobia and isolation from the outside world suppresses any kind of creative potential in the nation, then everything will be OK. This should be done through cinema, literature, theater, or even a fashionable clothing style. This can be done in any way but never with the aid of politicians because everybody is fed up with politics.”
“Do you think the Russians are mature enough to have a ‘non- Putin’ as president?”
“I think they have been mature long enough for Russia to have full- fledged democracy and a parliamentary constitution. Our people are progressive and modern, they can adequately respond to any challenge from the globalized world. Conversely, our elite is backward, extremely corrupt, and immoral — it is not an elite at all. Of course, it is dragging Russia to rock bottom, but progressive people are not yet courageous enough to replace this elite. The situation is bound to change in 5 to 10 years.”
“On the eve of the G8 summit the Russian leadership tried to boost the country’s image in the eyes of Western observers. These efforts even reached the point of banal word juggling: they say there is sovereign, not managed, democracy in Russia.”
“These statements have nothing to do with politics. Today, spinmeisters rule the roost in politics. We have foreign ‘spin’ instead of foreign policy, and domestic ‘spin’ instead of domestic policy. So, juggling terms, like ‘sovereign democracy,’ is exactly the same kind of ‘spin.’ The goal is to justify what exists today. This very much resembles the situation in which you have to justify an animal that has two heads and four tails. It is a genuine mutant, but it must still be classified somehow and put in the same line with ‘good,’ non-mutated, animals. That’s why they coined this word. But serious politicians shun discussions of this subject. Clearly, the restoration of the authoritarian model of a market-economy society is taking place. Soon there will be no difference between Russia and China.”
“In a recent article you commented that Ukraine and Russia have now gone their separate ways. Will they ever converge? Can this happen when Russia holds the next presidential election?”
“It may take Russia 5 to 10 years to embark on the path of democracy.”
“When you were visiting Ukraine, you noted that Ukrainian politicians were repeating the mistakes of their Russian counterparts. How high is the risk that Russian mistakes will not be taken into account?”
“Very high. The first mistake of Ukrainian politicians is their implacability in defeat: whatever may happen, no matter what crisis may engulf the country, we must make a timely comeback, without waiting for the next elections. We had this in 1993, when the White House (the Russian parliament building in Moscow — Ed.) burned down.
“The second mistake is setting people against one another to fulfill personal ambitions, forgetting that the country needs consolidation. For example, the Orange people took a tough stand: Russian will never be a regional language, which is a stupidity. The Blues are clamoring that President Yushchenko is a criminal, that no foreign warships will be allowed entry, and that easterners should rise up against the venal West. This is terrible.
“The third mistake is the inability to stabilize the government. The fact that the government is in a political crisis freezes the implementation of the Orange coalition’s decisions, which in turn strikes a blow not only at the opponents but also those who are doing it. Discrediting cuts both ways, it produces the effect of a ricochet. For example, in Russia, when the Union of Right Forces and Yabloko failed to unite, people cursed both of them. Nobody cared who was right and who was wrong. Ukrainians desire a single, integrated state, and peace, they still believe in democracy and want to go forward, while the elite is having fun, gnawing at each other’s nerves and veins. As a result, either the country will split apart or a dictator will come.”
“You no longer believe that Ukraine can be Russia’s ‘locomotive’?”
“Ukraine will instead backslide under a Russian scenario.”
“How can Ukraine and Russia improve their relations?”
“An indispensable condition for Moscow is that Ukraine must not move toward NATO and the EU and should opt for neutral status. This is the main thing for the Russian establishment. If Ukraine takes steps in the NATO direction, there will be no normal relations with Russia. If I were in power, then this would be possible. But the current Russian government will hardly change its viewpoint. It is up to Ukraine to decide what to do and where it is safer. But in any case this should be done carefully — not at a time when there is practically no government in the country, but some actions are already being undertaken. This is a mistake.”
“Do you think it’s unrealistic to try and convince Russia that NATO poses no threat?”
“You can convince Russia but not the top Russian leadership.”
“What role does the personal factor play in Ukraine-Russia relations?”
“This is a geopolitical game of the Russian elite. No matter what personalities may wield power in Russia, they are destined to remain nostalgic about the empire. This cannot be changed.”
