Relations between Ukraine and Israel have been developing in a more complicated, but less dynamic way than those between Jerusalem and Moscow. Last year Israel implemented visa waiver program with Russia. However, it has not done the same concerning our country, although it is known that most of Israeli Jews had come from Ukraine.
What hinders the development of Israeli-Ukrainian relations? Under what conditions can the huge potential of cooperation between the two countries be revealed? These and other questions are raised in The Day’s interview with Yaakov LIVNE, head of the Eurasian Department of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who is responsible for relations with Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.
“UKRAINE IS AN IMPORTANT PARTNER TO US”
Mr. Livne, I will ask you a question that may seem strange to you. Specializing in foreign news, I was surprised to see that Ukraine is not mentioned on the page “Bilateral Relations” of the website of Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Does it mean that relations with our country are less important for Jerusalem than those with the countries listed on this page?
“I think it is a mistake. This is very strange. There should be Eastern Europe, with Ukraine mentioned not in the last place. We consider our relations with Ukraine to be very important. Today there are many positive things in economic and tourist spheres on the bilateral level. We have a fairly good dialogue on the political level. Ukraine is an important partner for us.”
Supervising Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus, haven’t you noticed any discrepancies in Israel’s general approach to the three countries? Does Israel take into account the fact that, unlike Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are participants of the European program “Eastern Partnership” and want to integrate into the EU?
“In our partnership with these three countries, bilateral relations are of primary importance for us. Of course, we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine aspires to join the EU. You know that Israel and the European Union have close and intensive contacts on different levels. The partnership you have mentioned is only a part of the framework of this cooperation, all the more so that our cooperation with the EU dates back to 1975. And Ukraine’s aspirations to fit in with these standards may only facilitate our ties on the economic and judiciary levels.”
Does it mean that there is no difference between Jerusalem’s relations with Moscow and Kyiv, respectively?
“Speaking about our cooperation with Ukraine and Russia, there are many things in this aspect that are connected not only with the EU. Relations with Russia are very good and intensive. At the moment, a very intensive political dialogue is taking place between our countries on every possible level — not only governmental but also business and tourist levels. I would like our relations with Ukraine to advance in this direction as well. Hopefully, we will succeed in doing so in the coming months.”
“IT IS NOT SO EASY TO CANCEL THE VISA REGIME BETWEEN THE STATES”
Why cannot Israel at first cancel the visa regime between our countries like you did it with Russia last year? For in 2007, Yariv Ovadia, an official representative of Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, asserted that this could be done in a year or two.
“I think that both sides are interested in a visa waiver regime. Last year we introduced this kind of changes concerning Russia. However, since it is a very serious risk, we need some time to check how the new system works.”
Will you agree with me in that cancelling the visa regime with Russia looks quite illogical, because it was from our country that the largest number of Jews have emigrated to Israel after 1981? Wouldn’t it be logical to implement a visa waiver regime with Ukraine?
“In my opinion, it is relevant in both cases. Hopefully, we will be able to do so. With a view to intensive tourism, this could facilitate both Ukrainians’ trips to Israel, and the trips of our citizens to Ukraine.”
What prevents you from doing so? What should both sides do for this?
“I think that there are no obstacles on this way, but a corresponding process should take place in order to implement this. As you know, it is not an easy thing to cancel the visa regime between the states. There are different spheres linked to this. I hope that as soon as we have possibilities to do so, we will implement this.”
Can you predict when it may happen?
“I wouldn’t want to make predictions. It is better to make a real advancement in this direction, and when this happens, all of us will know about this. Specifically you, journalists, will be the first to know this. I can assure you that we take a real interest in reaching this aim.”
A POTENTIAL AND ITS REALIZATION ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS
What impact did the world financial crisis have on the relations between our countries? What tendencies are there on the political and economic levels?
“I think that the global economic crisis does not make anyone’s life easier. During the previous year the exchange of goods between our countries decreased by approximately 30 percent. Of course, this is not a positive tendency. Hopefully, the culmination of the crisis is behind, and we will be gradually recovering. Israel has been less affected by the crisis than other countries. The more we recover from the culmination of the crisis and get into in a normal economic situation with a desire to see economic growth in the future, the higher the potential of our relations.
“I want to say that a potential is one thing, whereas its realization is quite a different matter. Unfortunately, the gap between the existing potential, which is very high in relations between Israel and Ukraine, and its realization remains very large. We have managed to bridge this gap with Russia, but with Ukraine this process is, frankly, slower.”
Why?
“To answer this question, it might be useful for both sides to check the reasons and try to bolster our bilateral relations in the area of economy and tourism and possibly in other spheres. Ukraine and Israel have discussed many subjects connected with historical views on things. It is no secret that we have touched problematic historical periods. I am speaking about the periods of the First and Second World Wars. These themes will continue to be present in our dialogues. At the same time, it seems to me that instead of embellishing, forgetting, or ignoring these negative periods of our history, one should not forget that the Jewish people have lived for hundreds of years in Ukraine. Zionism begun and intensively developed in Ukraine.”
“WE SHOULD NOT LOOK BACK FOR THE SAKE OF SOME RETROSPECTIVE”
Shouldn’t the very fact that famous Jewish people used to live and work here make us closer?
“This is what I am getting at. I would like to find common ways and make a stronger emphasis on the positive elements of our common life in our relations, beginning from the 19th century, and find real ways to do so. Different possibilities exist for this, including organization of activities in places where we coexist, which, by the way, has a positive impact on Ukrainian tourism. It seems to me that we take a mutual interest in each other.
“However, to date, we have not always found real ways to make this. We know that Ukraine is experiencing other difficulties. Possibly, Israel has not paid enough attention to this matter. If I were asked about what I would include among the priorities of Israeli relations with Ukraine, it would be one of the major questions.”
In your opinion, how should the unpleasant past be smoothed over in relations between our peoples?
“There should be a dialogue about the past for the sake of the future. We don’t need to look back for some retrospective view or nostalgia. We should remember what we had: living side by side, contacts, cultural contribution to Ukraine, and not only to the Jewish people. And we should see how to use it for the sake of our future. I think that we can find good projects to make these things jointly.”
“WE ARE AT A POINT THAT ENABLES US TO FIND REAL COOPERATION PROJECTS”
Do both sides possess the head and heart, abilities and will, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stated in his speech, saying that the Israeli people is strong enough to deal with any challenges?
“I think that both sides have this interest and desire. You have rightly mentioned that a lot of Ukrainian emigrants now live in Israel. Their number may run up to 500,000. This is quite a large part of Israeli population.
I think that the following aspect will be interesting for you: the longer these people stay in Israel, the less interest they would have, it would seem, in the countries they came from. In reality the situation is the exact opposite. These emigrants find here jobs and realize themselves, and they develop a desire and get more opportunities to maintain contacts with their former fatherland. Today, I believe, we are at a point that enables us to find real cooperation projects in all spheres.
“For this we need to seek partners on the Ukrainian side. Honestly, it has been complicated to do so until today. For example, Foreign Affairs Minister Avigdor Lieberman takes a great interest in Ukraine. Many of his colleagues in our government have either come from Ukraine or know this country well. I think that we should build together the framework on the political level, which would give us a possibility to move ahead, if not now, then after the elections. We have not done this yet to the extent we could do.”
You have mentioned Mr. Lieberman. Can we expect him to pay a visitto Ukraine by the end of this year?
“I think he is interested in visiting Ukraine. But I am not sure that he will manage to do this by the end of the year for purely technical reasons. We will be glad to welcome Ukraine’s Minister of Foreign Affairs Petro Poroshenko in our country. He has already received an invitation from Mr. Lieberman.”
“WE HAVE ACCEPTED IN A VERY POSITIVE WAY KYIV’S STANCE CONCERNING THE GLADSTONE REPORT”
Does Ukraine’s position in the international arena, specifically the settlement of the Middle East conflict, affect the relations between our countries? How was Ukraine’s position concerning the Gladstone Commission Report accepted in Israel?
“We have accepted Kyiv’s position concerning this report in a most positive way. Ukraine has supported the position of Western countries, including Israel, because this was a correct step. I may assure you that Jerusalem paid proper attention to this step. And, of course, this will play an important role in our relations.”
How real is the idea of creating a free trade zone between Ukraine and Israel, mentioned recently by the head of Israel’s influential lobbying organization Association of Chambers of Commerce, Uriel Lin?
“I think there is a high probability that this will happen. Incidentally, this is linked to our cooperation with the EU. A free trade zone was formed between Israel and the EU. Therefore any negotiations on creating of this kind of zone with a new state, which is not an EU member, need certain adaptation so that new agreements did not contradict the existing ones. By the way, the closer Ukraine approaches the European Union, the easier it will be to create a free trade zone between Ukraine and Israel.”
You have mentioned Ukrainian elections. Could you offer a general characteristic of a leader Israel would like to see in Ukraine?
“Of course, we cannot choose or intrude into elections. We would like Ukraine to be a stable and prosperous country. And we will welcome and accept everything the Ukrainian people and Ukraine’s political system will decide and will be able to do in order to make progress in this direction, in particular for improving the Ukraine–Israel relations.”
