France is the European Union’s second most influential country after Germany. In fact, all the decisions the EU makes depend on the Franco-German powerhouse of Europe. What is Paris’s vision of the way out of the current debt and currency crisis that has hit the euro zone? How is France assessing the ongoing events in Ukraine and does it support the idea of giving Kyiv EU membership prospects, on which the present-day Ukrainian leadership insists? This is the subject of an interview with Jacque FAURE, the Ambassador of France to Ukraine.
OBJECTIVE REALITY VS. “DECLINE OF EUROPE”
Foreign media have been rife lately with publications headlined “The End of Europe,” “A Slow Death of Europe,” etc. Many put this down to the debt crunch, the euro crisis, the British riots, etc. And what will you, Mr. Ambassador, say to this?
“We all belong, one way or another, to Europe – from the angle of the education we gained and the world outlook we were taught to have. In other words, we all keep, deep in our mind, a reminder of the Ancient Greek myth about the ‘abduction [a.k.a. ‘rape’ – Ed.] of Europa.’ Besides, our families often recall stories about the First and Second World Wars, which were civil wars for Europe.
“Our continent recently saw the outbreak of new wars the common feature of which was exacerbated nationalistic feelings. Since wars broke out in the Balkans or in the Caucasus, everybody has been making great efforts to reestablish peace. This was a difficult thing to do, but the result was achieved.
“Therefore, one of the main gains of European construction was the fact that this process made it possible to guarantee peace in Europe. And no one can brush this aside. This objective reality is a factor that can reject the claim of Europe’s slow death.
“As European construction is still far from being completed, it would be a good idea if other countries, including Ukraine, joined it. The more the peoples of Europe come to know about each other, jointly work, and make additional efforts, the more chances we will have to refute the theory of Europe’s decline.
“It is worthwhile to take into account the economic analysis of the si-tuation. Today, the EU is not the world’s main producer. It is the United States and the developing countries. At the same time, the US and North America are still leaders in the field of technological research, patent registration, and inventions.
“It is therefore important that each of us, within the limits of our state and also cooperating with other European countries, should make a gallant effort to ensure progress and development of Europe and to strengthen its positions in the industrial, economic, and financial spheres. This is not so easy a task, especially now that the crisis is hitting the entire world, not only Europe. In the face of this unprecedented crisis, our reaction and our chances of survival can only consist in a collective response, for individual approaches will give no chances of success.
“Recently there was a Franco-German summit meeting in Paris, which discussed the problem of a debt crisis, global stock exchange uncertainty, and attacks on the European currency. The conclusion was there is a need for still closer cooperation.”
But some newspapers noted, commenting on this summit, that the mountain had given birth to a mouse.
“I am not going to deny any journalist the right to have their own critical view of events. I admit that critically-minded journalists would hardly prefer to see this meeting fail, leaving each side in the corner to rack its brains about what to do.
“So it seems to me personally that the proposals made towards a greater coordination inside Europe, including institutional measures (establishment of the so-called economic government of Europe), budgetary measures (signing an agreement before the summer of 2012 on what is known as European Union golden rule), and financial measure (taxation of financial transactions), are, in my view, adequate responses to the current situation.
“We should remember that all the current economic and financial difficulties, naturally, derive from the EU countries’ excessive indebtedness, but they are also the result of the ongoing speculative attacks on the euro zone. A certain role in these attacks is being played by rating agencies which are trying to be players and arbiters at the same time, which is inadmissible.
“So I can see that somebody perhaps finds it easy to speak about the decline of Europe, forgetting that Europe still remains a pole of economic growth.”
“Mr. Ambassador, the German chancellor and the British premier have admitted failure of the policy of multiculturalism. But it is this – cultural – factor that one of Europe’s founding fathers focused on, claiming that unity should be based not only on the economy but also on culture…
“Indeed, there have been riots in France, the United Kingdom, and other countries of Europe in the past few years, which had a negative effect on the image of each of these countries. The riots that recently broke out in Britain were of a violent nature and resulted from the undoubted social problems that concern a certain stratum of the population with respect to which the integration effort was not very successful. The French and British models of social development are different and often opposed to one another, but the general conclusion is that there is no ideal model.
“Today, we are forced to revise our immigration policy. It is in fact going to be of a more restrictive nature now. The goal is to improve the quality of immigrant reception. President Nicolas Sarkozy of France recently said that the number of immigrants was so large that high quality of integration is out of the question. You can only integrate if the country can offer you housing and a job.
“Our integration and immigration policy is assuming a more selective nature so that migrants meet a certain criterion and the requirements of our market, which will eventually make it easier to find a job.
“In my view, there is also a cultural dimension to this problem. As you know, France is traditionally a country of immigration. There have been several waves of immigration in the past two centuries. We received immigrants from Italy, Portugal, Spain, the Maghreb, Black Africa, Poland, and other countries of Central Europe. Every immigrant may have had a very dramatic history, but, on the whole. France really managed to solve the problem of their integration into French society. Those people brought here their language and cultural specifics. At the same time, we managed to maintain balance with the fundamental values that form the French social model and French identity. A major role in this work was played by the system of national education, which integrated immigrants via its institutions. But the national education system is now undergoing profound reformation. And this may have collided with the current difficult moment. For, today, young immigrants very often show indifference to or even disrespect for the basic values of our society and live as if they had never left their own countries. In other words, they do not wish to integrate with our societal structures. But we hope that, once reformed, national education will be successfully integrating new members into our social pattern again.”
“I CAN MORE AND MORE SEE THE GREAT DESIRE OF UKRAINIANS TO COME CLOSER TO EU STANDARDS”
In his article on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of independence, published by the weekly Dzerkalo tyzhnia, President Viktor Yanukovych said Ukraine had changed. Mr. Ambassador, you have been here for a long time. How do you think Ukraine has changed, and where is it moving to?
“It will perhaps take more than a three-year ambassadorial mission to assess the changes that have occurred in Ukraine. I have understood something but, of course, not everything. It is always important to remember the point of departure that was common to all post-Soviet countries. It should be noted that Ukraine stands out among the latter, for it managed take a vanguard position, as far as democratic development, observance of basic freedoms and human rights is concerned. But, today, you should make an effort not to lose the leading position in these matters. Let us look into the economic component of this analysis. We have heard a lot of high-profile experts say that Ukraine has a tremendous economic potential. But, unfortunately, this potential is not being realized as fast and as transparently as one would wish it to.
“I will add one more – purely human – dimension of this analysis. I have had numerous occasions during my stay here to meet Ukrainian youth, and I could see the extent to which the younger generation associated their ambitions, expectations and aspirations with Europe. I can assert this by way of comparison with my own children. I can see more and more clearly during my contacts with the Ukrainians that they have a great desire to live by and come closer to the standards that are typical today of our European societies. And it is a powerful impulse for Ukraine to continue moving in the projected direction. It is a promising sign that, while marching down this road of development, Ukraine is also bringing in something of its own, such as its vision of trends in art and literature, contemporary history, economic development, etc. In other words, Ukraine is integrating into Europe and making its own contribution to this.”
Mr. Ambassador, you spoke about the aspirations of young people, but what would you say about the current Ukrainian leadership which claims, to quote the president, that “European option has become the core of Ukraine’s foreign-policy identity and European values are the groundwork for our development”? Meanwhile, a Freedom House report says that the decline of Ukraine [in the first year of the Yanukovych administration. – Author] is a huge setback for democracy in this region.
“Since the proclamation of independence, the European Union has been closely following Ukraine’s progress and its social transformation efforts. There have been a lot of statements from Ukraine, too, about the intention to come closer to and integrate into Europe. But, to achieve the set goal, one should back words with real deeds. Ukraine should meet the commitments it made in the field of democracy, human rights, and effective governance. If statements and declarations are not followed by real actions, this will clearly lead to a blind alley. But I am still convinced that the intentions and directions we are talking about have been firmly embedded in Ukrainian hearts and minds.”
“FRANCE EXPECTS UKRAINE TO GET BACK TO THE ROAD OF DEMOCRACY”
EU and US representatives are making a lot of statements about judicial trials in Ukraine. Sweden’s Foreign Minister Carl Bildt says in a Project Syndicate article, printed in Den, that the trial of Tymoshenko poses a threat to Ukraine’s European prospects. The Financial Times comments that the EU is facing a dilemma: to sign, as soon as possible, a free trade area agreement with Ukraine because this will increase EU leverage upon Kyiv, or just to leave the prospect of a closer integration with the EU as a deterrent factor for the leadership of Ukraine. What does Paris think of this?
“I will remind you that in 2008, during the presidency of France, the European Union resolved to offer Kyiv a new type of agreement – an agreement on association – aimed at strengthening the rule-of-law state in Ukraine. Moreover, a decision to this effect was to leave open other opportunities for developing the format of relations between Ukraine and the EU. However, the local elections in Ukraine in the fall of 2010, when we saw a certain departure from democratic principles, and later developments, when the ex-premier and some other members of the former government and the opposition went on trial, caused disappointment and doubts about the validity of rule-of-law principles in Ukraine. As is known, Ukraine is bound up with the European Union by certain political commitments. Therefore, France expects Ukraine to get back to the road of democracy, which envisages a rule-of-law state, independent justice, political pluralism, and a market economy.”
As the Ukrainian government continues to apply “selective justice” to opposition leaders, some politicians suggest “blacklisting” certain Ukrainian officials, as the US administration has already done with respect to the Russian officials implicated in the death of Magnitsky. Do you think it would be good to apply this method to Ukraine?
“It is not yet time to resort to the concrete measures you are talking about, including blacklisting. This question is not yet on the agenda. In any case, this would be an all-European, not a local, affair, i.e., as a result of consultations among Europe’s leaders. But consultations to this effect are now underway on the European level. Late August and early September will provide new opportunities for this kind of consultations and exchange of ideas. What is now being negotiated are far more concrete issues that make part of the association agreement package.
“Ukraine should fulfill the tasks it has undertaken of its own free will. Nobody forced it to do so. Now everybody expects the Ukrainian side to meet its obligations as part of the negotiating process. We do not accept a position when one asks for something more without doing what they have promised before. And when the list of the unfulfilled tasks gradually gains weight and surpasses that of the fulfilled ones, this may change the direction of this process very fast.”
The vast majority of Ukrainian experts believe that the EU is demanding very much from Ukraine but is offering very little. What does France think of a possibility to give Ukraine a membership prospect?
“In 2008 Ukraine was offered an absolutely new, upgraded, agreement which qualitatively differs from the previous ten-year Agreement on Partnership and Cooperation between Ukraine and the EU. The new agreement has a very wide field of possibilities. So we should do our best to sign it and seize the great opportunities that the new format of an association agreement provides. Kyiv is pursuing a wrong policy, when it asks for more, without fulfilling the obligations it has undertaken before and without using all the available opportunities. The agreement format offered during the Ukraine-EU summit in Paris comprises a very wide field of opportunities for Ukraine, and the latter should make use of all the things offered rather than get ahead of itself.”
Mr. Ambassador, do you think Minister [of Foreign Affairs] Hryshchenko is right when he says that if Ukraine joins Europe, it will reinforce the latter rather than be a burden onto it?
“We support rapprochement between Ukraine and Europe, and everybody can only welcome this. But this again raises the question of what is to be done for this – not just to declare but to do something. There are no results in sight so far.”
“CRITICISM FROM FRIENDS AND PARTNERS SHOULD BE TAKEN IN STRIDE”
Incidentally, what do you think about the Ukrainian president’s claim in the abovementioned article that Ukraine will be an EU member in 10 years’ time?
“Speaking of forecasts, I’ve recalled a phrase Cardinal de Retz said in the times of French kings: ‘You can only come out of ambiguity to the detriment of the latter.’ When President Yanukovych says that Ukraine will join the EU within 10 years, I will be perhaps the first to welcome the achievement of this goal. But I have a question to ask: are these noble goals based on concrete deeds aimed at achieving them? The proclaimed goals are noble and splendid, but the analysis of the current situation does not allow us to clearly see that they are being realized. In this case, I think it is absolutely necessary and useful that Ukraine’s European partners should be frankly pointing to shortcomings and saying: caution, you have chosen a wrong way. This kind of criticism form friends and partners should be taken in stride.”
Mr. Ambassador, did you have to pay for frankness? After you said that “the Yulia Tymoshenko trial is very far from the law but very close to politics,” the Ukrainian media reported that you were being recalled from Kyiv and an agreement was in the offing for your successor – all because you allegedly allowed yourself “more than Paris seemed is acceptable.”
“The Embassy and the Foreign Ministry of France have clearly and consistently denied all these rumors. As is known, the ambassador’s term of office is usually three years. It was, in my view, impolite and sad that the Foreign Ministry invented and spread via the media a tall story about me being recalled from office because my words did not comply with the attitude of official Paris. France is taking a clear and consistent stand over the trials you mentioned. This stand was expressed in the French Foreign Ministry statements of June 23 and August 5 and 19, as well as in my public and private comments. I can confirm today that the entire world is unambiguously interpreting the trial of Ms. Tymoshenko for signing the 2009 gas agreements as a politically motivated affair.”
