Poland is one of the initiators of the new concept of EU relations with its eastern partners, called the Eastern Partnership. Is there a risk that the “final format of this initiative may become a veiled alternative to Ukraine’s future membership in the EU,” as was emphasized by official Kyiv in a statement issued by Ukraine’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs? How can Euro-2012 help Ukraine’s integration in the EU? What are the prospects for cancelling the visa regime between the EU and Ukraine? These and other questions are raised in The Day ’s interview with Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Poland to Ukraine Jacek KLUCZKOWSKI.
THE EASTERN PARTNERSHIP AND THE FAILED REFERENDUM IN IRELAND
“I don’t think that the Eastern Partnership can become a hidden alternative to Ukraine’s future membership in the EU. First of all, we would like to go beyond the framework of the European Neighborhood Policy precisely because of the addition to this policy of a more concrete program for Ukraine’s preparation for future membership in the European Union. The question here is that the Eastern Partnership does not mention any political prospects. But this initiative, not to mention European prospects, is built in such a way as to create a political foundation for more developed preparatory programs, above all, for Ukraine’s accession to the EU.”
Meaning, the Eastern Partnership does not have any other meaning?
“We are initiators. Therefore, there can be no talk of this. This initiative was not proposed for this goal.”
What is your assessment of the results of the latest EU summit in the wake of the Irish referendum?
“The European Union is composed of European countries, and its effectiveness is defined by its ability to function and coordinate policies. The Lisbon Treaty was supposed to be one of the instruments of this coordination, creating instruments of coordination for European policies. We are now facing a problem that is the result of the Irish people’s decision in the referendum. What did the people want to say with this ‘No’? Are they against deepened integration in the political direction? I’m not sure about this. Europe’s political elites have reached an understanding on the question of approving the treaty. Perhaps there is some drawback in the dialogue with the society. Maybe dissatisfaction with the government’s activity was the reason behind the Irish vote. Still, the Irish people have received huge assistance from the EU. This country has become prosperous thanks to funds supplied by the economically well-developed European countries. Therefore, both intellectuals and politicians should think about what has happened; that we can receive a signal from one country or another, which may slow down the process of integration. Europe cannot move ahead without the support of the population of the EU member countries.”
UKRAINE’S EUROINTEGRATION AND EURO-2012
How should one assess the statement of President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, who said that EU enlargement is impossible unless the Lisbon Treaty is ratified?
“The Polish position is clear: Europe must live and develop regardless of what will happen to the institutions of the European Union and the Lisbon Treaty. But there is an objective reality. If the presidency country says that this will have an impact on the process of enlargement, it will be so. We can express a wish that the crisis connected with the results of the Irish referendum will end, so that we can first of all accept Croatia. Everything is almost ready there; the only things left to do are to complete the negotiations and define the date of entry. It is necessary to finish the negotiations with the western Balkan countries, talk about prospects, and prepare for them. Ukraine and Turkey may come next, in our opinion. As you know, Ukraine is important to us. We believe that in 2010 and 2011 it will be possible to speak about the next integration steps aimed at Ukraine’s European integration.”
This will happen right before the European soccer championship that our two countries will host in 2012.
“This has no connection to the European championship, although this event creates an opportunity for Ukrainian legislation to become more European in relation to economic problems.
I can see that there are great problems here, which are connected to the implementation of tariff coordination linked to Ukraine’s accession to the WTO. There are problems with approving legislation on private-state partnership in the investment process. There are problems with the coordination of legislation on concessions and the issuing of licenses. The European Championship is creating opportunities for regulating this sphere. But this should be done quickly. We expected this to be over by the end of last year because the European championship is creating opportunities to do this quickly and in keeping with European standards.”
How would you assess the statement made by Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who said that her government has done more in half a year than the previous government did in 18 months?
“I agree: as for the preparations for the Euro-2012, a very intensive process began this year. I welcome such a statement, and I think that the Polish government has begun to do this work in a more intensive way as well. In the fall state projects were drafted, even though there were governmental crises in your country and ours. Since the beginning of this year a very intensive preparatory process has begun in our countries. And this should be welcomed.”
I recently visited Warsaw and Wroclaw. New stadiums are not being built in either of these cities. Is there any danger that the stadiums won’t be ready for the Euro- 2012?
“Stadiums don’t appear on the strength of prayers. They should be built according to a coordinated schedule. As far as Wroclaw, Poznan, and Gdansk are concerned, we are not off schedule. Everything is going according to plan. There are no stadiums yet because they should be built in 2010 and 2011. The UEFA is aware of this.”
What can you tell me about the cooperation between the Ukrainian and Polish cities that are preparing for the Euro-2012?
“Preparations for the championship are a task for both sides. How can Wroclaw and Gdansk help the Ukrainian cities? They can share their experience with them. I think that the Polish cities are ready to do this. But the main questions and problems should be resolved on one’s own. Our legal systems are different, as are the financial sources of this project. Perhaps more attention should be paid to the cooperation between our governments, which are collaborating in an intensive and efficient way.”
THE PROSPECTS FOR A VISA-WAIVER REGIME
Borys Tarasiuk, the head of the Parliamentary Committee on European Integration, recently said that, in reminding Ukraine of its obligations in the agreement on the simplified visa regime and readmission, the EU itself is not fulfilling its own obligations where the procedure for issuing visas is concerned. Are Tarasiuk’s remarks justified?
“There is no connection between these two questions. Speaking about readmission, this is above all our joint struggle against illegal immigration and crime. But the question is to what extent Ukraine is ready to cooperate. The visa question is more complicated. Ukraine signed an agreement on simplifying the visa regime with the countries of the former Schengen zone. And this happened. But after the agreement was signed, Poland and other countries in Central and Eastern Europe joined the Schengen zone. Schengen has thus resulted in certain complications. The agreement is functioning, and the visa regime has been liberalized and simplified, and there are also free visa categories concerning old EU members. But Ukrainian citizens feel that there are certain complications with Poland and other neighbors that have moved over to Schengen zone standards.”
How do you see the prospects for a visa waiver regime between the EU and Ukraine? What should Kyiv and Brussels do to achieve it?
“First of all, we must reduce the number of illegal immigrants from the east. There is a need to curb smuggling, human trafficking, and the destabilization of the labor market, especially in Western European countries. It pains the West to see that, as a result of the enlargement of the Schengen zone, the number of illegal immigrants from the east to the EU is increasing. It is not convinced that the enlargement of the Schengen zone was beneficial to the old European countries. So the situation should be improved.
“Ukraine has to resolve its border problems with Belarus, Russia, and Moldova. The agreement on readmission should start working. They feel that threats and dangers are increasing precisely because of the Schengen zone’s enlargement. Therefore, they are forcing us to intensify the criteria and be less liberal about our visa policy in our consulates. I think that the visa waiver regime will be on the agenda only once we see a reduction of threats to Europe. Our concept of the Eastern Partnership includes a proposal concerning the liberalization of the visa regime with a possibility of its cancellation.”
Russia is now insisting on obtaining a visa waiver regime with the EU. Does this mean that Russia may outstrip Ukraine in its efforts to obtain a visa waiver regime?
“We are talking about the threats linked to cancelling the visa regime. The creation of cooperation among international police agencies in their fight against illegal migration, crime, smuggling, prostitution, and human trafficking may become the grounds to start negotiations on cancelling the visa regime. But this concerns Ukraine as well. Indeed, Russia insists on this, but I think that Ukraine also insists on making this question a subject of negotiations. If Ukraine does not make a breakthrough in the coordination of border and readmission questions as well as in examples of abuses of the visa waiver regime, we, Poles, will insist on making your country the first one.”
“THE PRESIDENT AND PRIME MINISTER’S ATTITUDE TO RECEIVING THE MAP IS VERY POSITIVE”
During the April summit Poland actively supported giving the MAP to Ukraine, while Germany and France declared that our country is not ready to move to such a level of relations with the Alliance. Recently, the German Ambassador to Ukraine Reinhard Schaeffers stated that Berlin has not changed its position on giving the MAP to Ukraine. What should Ukraine do to gain the sympathy of Germany and France?
“If there were political instability in Ukraine and NATO support were decreasing, then Schaeffers would have had grounds to say that. But it should be noted that there is consent in principle among the countries of the North Atlantic Alliance that Ukraine and Georgia can be candidates for NATO membership. Both Germany and France, which have doubts concerning giving them the MAP, agreed with this in Bucharest.”
Do you see unity in the positions of the Ukrainian president and prime minister on NATO, which was declared during the visit to Ukraine of the NATO council headed by the secretary general?
“I think that the attitude of the president and prime minister to receiving the MAP is very positive. It is difficult to say whether it can be more positive. Observing from the Polish perspective, I believe that there is a lack of serious dialogue among the different political forces concerning the security policy. In our country in the late 1990s all political forces, both the opposition and the governmental coalition, supported accession to NATO, and a serious dialogue about this was taking place. I think that the vision of Ukraine’s future depends not only on the president and the prime minister but on the opposition parties as well. I would like to see a process of willingness to approach a dialogue. But Ukrainian parties are the ones that have the support of the Ukrainian people. Therefore, Ukraine needs an open dialogue on questions of security, and there is a need for a positive evolution of those parties that are against.”
A certain member of the Party of Regions said that NATO is a weak organization that cannot be expected to provide effective protection.
“That is his opinion. NATO has been proving its effectiveness for nearly 60 years. The Alliance saved the world from Soviet hegemony and created the groundwork for democratic changes in Central Europe. And we think that NATO has justified its existence. NATO does not organize wars. The entry into NATO of any country, Poland for example, was not viewed as a chance for us to act in a more rigid way with other countries. On the contrary: NATO demanded that we prove we have good relations with our neighbors, that we are conducting a dialogue if there is a misunderstanding, that we have the will to talk and resolve questions. I am certain that in the conditions of real threats Article 5 of the Washington Treaty will be effective.
“But right now we are talking about the creation of a structure for security and cooperation on security questions. Above all, NATO is aimed at defending Europe. But the Alliance can be a global partner for all democratic countries in other parts of the world. Such global partners are, indisputably, Russia, Japan, and Australia, meaning those countries that may be or are part of Western civilization with democratic values, a free market, observance of human rights, and freedom of the press.”
“THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT IS FULFILLING THE OBLIGATIONS DECLARED DURING THE ENERGY SUMMIT IN KYIV”
Not long ago an energy summit was held in Kyiv. Can we expect that this question will be discussed at the Economic Forum in Krynica, Poland?
“Krynica will be more of a discussion forum that is supposed to help business, political, and expert circles from different countries draw closer together so that they can exchange opinions. Going back to the Kyiv Energy Summit, the issue here is about the implementation and fulfillment of agreements. First of all, we can see that the Ukrainian government is fulfilling the obligations that were declared at the summit. The cancellation of the reverse mode of supplying oil from Brody to Odesa has already been announced, and the possibility to transport oil via the Southern Druzhba pipeline across Slovakia to the Czech Republic has been confirmed. It has also been announced that there is oil from Azerbaijan. The dialogue with Belarus has grown more intensive.
“After Kyiv we can say that the process initiated at the first energy summit in Cracow has started to work and become a reality. Now we are waiting for a new feasibility study on the extension of the Odesa- Brody pipeline to Western Europe. We have also reached an understanding that this should be a multi- variant project, that the issue is not just about extending the oil pipeline but also about creating other ways to supply and process oil. At the summit in Kyiv we saw that this process is in effect and will continue at a good pace, I would say.”
You have probably heard some experts saying that Poland is the one delaying the extension of the oil pipeline to its territory after failing to find companies that would guarantee the purchase of certain amounts of oil.
“I have already said that the discussion in Kyiv was not about the extension but about a multi-variant project of a corridor stretching from the Caspian Sea to Western Europe. There are many variants. I have already mentioned four of them. The fifth one is the modernization of the oil refinery in western Ukraine. The sixth one is the reliability of the Azerbaijani partner. We have positive results in all of these directions. And Poland has a great interest in this project.”
THE POLISH CHARTER AND LONG-TERM PERSPECTIVE
In the first days after the law on the Polish Charter came into effect, there was a big uproar in Ukraine about it as well as fears expressed by Ukrainian politicians that it will lead to the mass flight of Ukrainians of Polish origin. Can you give me any information about the number of documents that were issued? How is this process unfolding?
“The statistics are not startling. We feel this most in the Lviv Consular District. Although there are few ethnic Poles there, they have a connection with the Polish culture. People there know Polish and have relatives in Poland. Since early April hundreds of people have shown an interest in receiving the Polish Charter. In other consular districts one can speak about dozens of people. The first wave mainly concerns elderly people. They view this as an expression of respect paid to them by the Polish state for having preserved the Polish language, culture, and Catholic faith.
“The second category includes activists and heads of Polish organizations; there are nearly a hundred of them. There are also people who have a direct connection with the Catholic Church. They are visiting the consulates and declaring that they have a Polish background. But all this has to be proved, as well as knowledge of Polish. The process is more or less developing.”
And coming to an end.
“No, it isn’t. I think that it has a long-term perspective. We would like to broaden the circle of Polish friends among Ukrainian citizens with the help of the Polish Charter.”
