Five US congressmen who sit on the Committee on Armed Services of the House of Representatives arrived in Ukraine on March 30. The US lawmakers’ schedule calls for meetings with the senior leadership of our country: the president, the prime minister, the defense minister, the first deputy speaker, and the leadership of the National Security Council. On the one hand, the lawmakers want to hear from the Ukrainian leadership about its preferred solutions to the conflict in the Donbas. On the other, they will brief their hosts on the dynamics of the passage of bills in the US Congress, including those concerning provision of arms to Ukraine. The lawmakers began their visit in a quite unusual manner as they went to the National Ukrainian Holodomor Victims Memorial Museum. After touring it, head of the delegation and chairman of the Committee on Armed Services Mac Thornberry gave an exclusive interview to The Day, explaining, in particular, why the congressmen chose this museum for their visit.
“Well, I did not know about the number of people who had died in famines and when we heard about the museum and the terrible suffering that went on and some similarities to suffering that is going on now, we wanted to come see it. It is very important for all of us to know about and remember great cruelty that man can do to man. Because if we forget all the others will forget and then it can more easily happen again.”
Has this visit to the museum deepened this conviction of yours?
“Much of the world, for example, knows about the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust. Much of the world does not know about as many people who have died in the famine of 1932-33. So, I think this museum teaches a lot about that, but it displays it in a way that you can really understand the great human suffering.”
I know that your first degree is Bachelor of Arts in History. What did you know about the history of Ukraine then?
“Well, I have known some things about Ukraine’s history. I was here nearly 20 years ago. The state has changed a lot since that time. But there are important parts of Ukrainian history that I didn’t know and I think that most people don’t, and especially the extent of the famines that were intentionally induced by the Russians and which have killed so many millions of people.”
Congressman, you probably know that Ukraine gave up its 1,450 warheads, targeted at the US, in exchange for security guarantees...
CONGRESSMAN MAC THORNBERRY HAS JOINED THE DAY’S ELITE BOOK CLUB. LET US RECALL THAT OUR BOOK UKRAINE INCOGNITA. TOP 25 IS NOW ON THE READING LISTS OF SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN, PRESIDENT OF LITHUANIA DALIA GRYBAUSKAITE, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE TO THE UN SAMANTHA POWER, AND MANY OTHER LEADING WORLD POLITICIANS / Photo by Mykola TYMCHENKO, The Day
“That’s why I was here about twenty years ago, when those warheads had been returned to Russia and the United States was helping to eliminate those silos, return it to farmland, and to cut up the missiles, and so forth.”
Still, do you see the current administration’s response to the Russian aggression and annexation of Crimea as an adequate, given that the US guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine by signing the Budapest Memorandum, and what should be done, in your opinion, to stop Vladimir Putin and force him to return Crimea?
“My opinion is that we should increase the pressure on Russia and we should give the Ukrainian government the weapons so that it can better defend itself. Some people in the United States are worried about that because they are afraid that it will increase the suffering of the people with more weapons. But I believe that the Ukrainians are able and willing and should be allowed to defend themselves against this sort of aggression with their weapons.”
Congressman, you were a co-sponsor of the House of Representatives’ resolution calling on the president to provide arms to Ukraine, which was passed on March 23. Together with Democratic Congressman Adam Smith, you proposed a bill in late February which would allocate a billion dollars for providing arms to Ukraine. What is that bill’s status?
“Both parties in the Congress believe we should give more weapons to Ukraine. In our system, part of our challenge is whether Congress can require a president to do that if he does not want to. So, as you point out we voted on the resolution that won overwhelming support. It says the president should do this, we’ll continue to look for the ways to move our bill or other legislation to make that happen. But I think the United States also needs to assist Ukraine on the economic front and others in addition to the weapons, but I believe the security is the most important part.”
The House of Representatives and the Senate voted for the Ukraine Freedom Support Act in 2014. However, before it was passed, the bill had been amended to exclude Article 7, which would grant Ukraine the status of major non-NATO ally of the US. Should this issue be revisited now?
“I think so. And I think all the NATO countries understand that what happens in Ukraine has a very important consequence to NATO, so we have a lot at stake. NATO has a lot at stake in what happens in Ukraine, regardless of whether Ukraine is officially a member of NATO. So, some additional designation I think makes sense, but the facts on the ground are that it’s very important for all countries to have resistance to this sort of aggression that leads to so much human suffering. I mean there is one thing that a visit to this museum reminds us all is that a lot of ordinary people suffer a lot when you have this sort of aggression, such as happening today in eastern Ukraine.”
Congressman Mike Rogers, who is now a member of your delegation, said during his previous visit to Kyiv a few months ago that instead of granting the status of major ally, American lawmakers would promote Ukraine’s rapprochement with NATO...
“I think some day that is something that we want to consider, but we should not delay in my opinion helping Ukraine today, because there is a real crisis going on here.”
A few days ago, foreign policy analyst at the American Foreign Policy Council Stephen Blank wrote an article stressing that Putin had planned to seize Crimea and unleash aggression against Ukraine since late 2004. Thus, it was not at all an impulsive decision of the Russian leader, as President Obama stated in an interview with the GPS. What do you think about this and what conclusions should be drawn?
“I don’t know. I think it is impossible for any of us to get inside Putin’s head. And in some way it doesn’t matter, because he is doing what he is doing, whatever the reasons. And it is important for that sort of aggression to be resisted for Ukraine, but also for all other countries as well.”
How to do it, then?
“We’ve talked about it I think. Part of it is military assistance and training in weapons. Part of it is assistance for Ukraine economically, because there’s been a lot of suffering here. Assistance for the refugees. You know, one part of this exhibit is about the American assistance back in the 1920s for starvation. There are as I have understood about a million people who have been displaced inside Ukraine today because of the fighting. So, there are a number of ways that we can help, but I think that the military assistance is very important.”
Are there other ways for replacing the Budapest Memorandum with another treaty that would guarantee security and territorial integrity of Ukraine? May an alliance treaty between Ukraine and the US be such a way?
“Maybe. But, on the other hand, I think what we have already agreed should be held. In Budapest all the nations agreed that if Ukraine would give up its nuclear weapons, its territory would be respected. It is not being respected by Russia today. And that is part of the reason why all nations have a lot at stake in reversing this aggression.”
What would you like to wish Ukrainians through this newspaper?
“I have great admiration for the courage and determination of the Ukrainian people, as you think all of the things that Ukrainian people have been through over time, such as this museum and such as what’s happening today, it gives me even more respect for the Ukrainian people, and it also helps me to have greater resolve that they need assistance. Ukrainians cannot be left on their own. Because they have suffered a lot and they are standing up for what is right for all of us in this case today. And they should be supported.”
May we ask for your prediction on who will be the next president of the US?
“I don’t know. It is a very good question, and I don’t think anybody knows. I don’t even know who I support yet.”
