Stefan Niesielowski, the Deputy Speaker of the Polish Sejm, represents the ruling coalition and is a member of the Civic Platform Party. Before this, he was the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in the previous convocation of the Polish parliament. He drafted a resolution on the Ukraine Holodomor in 1932-33 and on honoring the memory of the victims of this tragedy, which the Polish Senate unanimously approved in 2006.
What is the Polish parliament’s vision of the problems that Ukrainian citizens began to face when Poland joined the Schengen Area and the agreement on relaxed visa requirements came into force? Are there any ways to speed up the issuing of visas to Ukrainian citizens? What is delaying the visit to Ukraine by Poland’s Prime Minister Donald Tusk, and will there be any changes in the new government’s policy toward Ukraine? These and other questions are raised in The Day’s interview with Stefan NIESIELOWSKI.
Mr. Vice-Speaker, many Ukrainians have the impression that it has become more difficult to cross the Ukrainian-Polish border ever since Poland became part of the Schengen Area and Ukraine and the EU signed an agreement on relaxed visa requirements. Why do you think this situation emerged and how can it be resolved?
“In reality, the problem emerged not because Poland joined the Schengen Area, but because the previous government was not adequately prepared for issuing such a large number of visas under the new rules and regulations. All this led to complaints about the efficiency of Polish consulates. They are unable to cope with the immense number of visa applications. What caused this are the Schengen requirements, not a negative attitude on Poland’s part. Ukrainians in Lviv are often dissatisfied because they are issued single-entry visas and so they have to file applications often. This is technically difficult to do. But a group of experts is coming from Poland soon to work out a mechanism for speeding up the issuing of visas to Ukrainian citizens.”
What about the small-scale cross-border traffic? There are a lot of Ukrainians who live near the border and often visit Poland. Who do you think is to blame for the fact that the agreement on small-scale cross-border traffic, which Ukraine favors, has not been signed yet?
“The likely ways of speeding up the cross-border traffic are still being negotiated. It is impossible to impose a visa-free regime even in an isolated sector because Poland’s eastern border is now the border of the Schengen Area countries. So all our cross-border agreements have to be approved by officials in Brussels and considered under the rules that are the same for all the member states. The point is that an individual who crosses the Polish border can travel on to other countries. We know that Ukrainians are very nervous because they have to wait around for a long time in the consulates.”
Ukraine has already signed a small-scale cross-country traffic agreement with Hungary and is going to do the same with Slovakia.
“I don’t know what Ukraine’s agreements with Hungary and Slovakia look like. But there is no doubt that the cross-border traffic of people to these countries is far smaller. I know that Polish consulates have to consider thousands of visa applications, but their resources are limited. Ukraine and Poland are now negotiating about this problem.”
Since you represent the ruling coalition and are a member of the Civic Platform Party, do you think the Polish government can change its policy toward Ukraine? It is common knowledge that Tusk said before the elections that he was going to revise the policy toward Germany, the EU as a whole, the US, and Russia.
“The Polish foreign policy envisions no changes in Poland’s attitude to Ukraine. There are disputes and debates over domestic policy, which have no impact on foreign policy. Even the Law and Justice Party, which lost the elections and is now in the opposition, is still pro-American, pro-Western. When we debate, we discuss style, emphasis, and rhetoric, which are sometimes very important in the way foreign policy is carried out. On the other hand, we all wish Ukraine well and wholly support previous slogans and statements. Poland and Ukraine are longtime friends. Poland was the second country to recognize Ukraine’s independence. During the Orange Revolution we strongly supported the struggle for democracy in your country. So there can be no changes with respect to Ukraine. We are Ukraine’s friends and support your independence and pro-Western attitudes, including efforts to join NATO and the EU. But this is Ukraine’s problem, not Poland’s. The Ukrainian nation itself should decide on the policy to be pursued.”
What rhetoric and accents are we going to hear during the first visit of Prime Minister Donald Tusk to Ukraine?
“It is difficult for me to answer this question. But after returning from Kyiv, I will speak to the prime minister and his team and try to persuade them that this visit should take place as soon as possible. Maybe even in February. Naturally, the date of the visit is important, but this is not a crucial factor because Polish-Ukrainian relations and Poland’s support in no way depend on this. Sikorski, our foreign minister, recently paid a visit to Kyiv. I wish you wouldn’t listen to certain voices or some associations in Poland about Donald Tusk’s visit to Russia. This is part of an internal political struggle and should not be taken too seriously. The date of the visit will not affect the further course of our relations.”
Some diplomats say it will be difficult for the Polish prime minister to make a deal with a woman. Is this true?
(Laughs). “I don’t think there is a problem here. I like this beautiful lady, Ms. Tymoshenko, very much. She is a superb prime minister. But I must note that it makes no difference to us who the Ukrainian prime minister is. That is the internal affair of your country. We support any prime minister of Ukraine.”
You said earlier that Ukraine should make its own foreign-policy choice. You must have heard that the president, the prime minister, and the Verkhovna Rada speaker signed a letter to NATO about joining the Membership Action Plan. But the other day your compatriot, the Vice- President of the European Parliament, Marek Siwiec, told that Ukraine is not sincere in her Euro-Atlantic aspirations. What is your personal vision of the sincerity of Ukraine’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations?
“I have already said that Poland’s support for Ukraine’s aspirations to join NATO and the EU will remain unchanged no matter what government is in Poland. All of Europe would like to see Ukraine join the Euro-Atlantic community. We think that our own well-being and development is linked to Ukraine. I say from the bottom of my heart that our support for Ukraine will not depend on any domestic events in Poland.”
Do you agree with Sikorski, who recently told a Ukrainian weekly that Ukraine should not be disappointed if the NATO summit in Bucharest does not offer the MAP to Ukraine?
“I think that what is important here is the context in which these words were said. They can be interpreted in two contradictory ways. First, it is not important what the Bucharest summit concludes with. Second, it is no crime if the summit fails to make a positive decision. I think Ukraine will be a NATO and EU member in the future. In my opinion, Sikorski meant that Ukraine’s future membership in the EU and NATO does not depend on what decision will be made in Bucharest. Otherwise, this would run counter to the very foundations of Polish foreign policy.”
What could be the consequences for European security if Ukraine is not given the MAP in Bucharest?
“It would be better to put this question to Minister Sikorski. I know that Sikorski favors Ukraine’s NATO and EU membership.”
You know that Russia resolutely opposes NATO’s eastward expansion and Ukraine’s accession to NATO. How can the Western countries convince Russia that NATO’s enlargement and Ukraine’s membership poses no threat to it?
“Ukraine’s accession to NATO is not Russia’s concern, it is an exclusively Ukrainian concern, and the decision will be made by Ukrainians. Poland will gladly welcome Ukraine as a member of NATO and the EU. In this situation, Ukrainians themselves should make the decision. I am sure that they will be self-sufficient, just like they were when they won their independence and built a state of their own. And the issue of Ukraine’s entry into NATO will be resolved here in Kyiv, not in Warsaw or, all the more so, in Moscow.”
What do you think about your country’s preparedness to host the European soccer championship in 2012?
“Parliament does not deal with this question. All the responsibility lies with the sports minister, Mr. Dzewecki, who represents the Civic Platform. We have a lot of problems with regard to this issue.”
Can you imagine a situation in the Polish parliament, where the minority does not allow the majority to work and make laws?
“It is impossible in our parliament because there are clear-cut rules with respect to this legislative body. Whereas the Verkhovna Rada needs an absolute majority to pass a resolution, sometimes only half of our parliamentarians are present in the hall. And to pass a law or to resolve some procedural problems, we only need a one-vote majority from those present, i.e., half the parliament.”
Can it happen in your parliament that the minority physically bars the majority from conducting a session?
“Some insane person can, of course, go to the podium and break something. But this is an act of hooliganism. One time, the speaker deprived a parliamentarian of the right to speak when the latter pulled out a megaphone and spoke for 10 minutes. But the regulations forbid this.”
Just the other day some Bulgarian media published a list of government officials who had collaborated with the communist-era secret police. What is your attitude to so-called “lustration,” which is also underway in your country?
“I can say that this campaign has almost ended in Poland. Under the current law, lustration is the preserve of the Institute of National Memory. This institution is authorized to publish a list of individuals who collaborated with the communist-era secret police. Such people are forced to resign from government offices. I will add that there is a debate in Polish society over the necessity of finding out certain details and nuances. The point is that if an individual signed a collaboration document, he or she was automatically placed on this list. But this does not mean that he/she did something bad.”
Is there a threat that lustration can be used as an instrument for government institutions to fight “undesirable” political rivals?
“This can happen. It is the subject of heated debates in many countries. This can really be an instrument. All the countries that lived under a communist regime suffer from this disease. For example, Hans Globka, a minister in the Adenauer government, once asked whether somebody’s words, which did not harm anybody, could be regarded as a fact of collaboration with the secret police. Such disputes are still rife.”
Is it worthwhile applying lustration to Ukraine?
(Laughs). “I would not like to speak here about Ukraine and lustration.”
