Alexander Rahr, program director on Russia and the CIS of the German Society for Foreign Policy, believes the cassette scandal will become history as soon as Ukraine begins pragmatic cooperation with the West. According to the German political scientist, Ukraine’s movement toward the European Union could be harmed more by the existing obstacles Western investors must face. Meanwhile, closer ties could be fostered by the unique prospects now opening up for cooperation in defense and security areas, Rahr said in an interview at an international conference on The Social Democratic Idea in the Ukrainian and European Political Theater held in Kyiv.
“Who shapes up the roster of values shaping how civilized Europe views Ukraine?
“First, let’s look at what Europe is today. The Americans compare Europe to an international actor performing on his own on the international scene. There is also an idea of Europe as a geographical notion and, viewed from this perspective, Ukraine is part, perhaps even the center, of Europe. There is a third vision of Europe as a hub of security (this one is particularly favored by Russia). The Europeans have started to create a superpower on the continent called Europe. And there is a view among Europeans, among old Europeans, of Europe as a system of common values: democracy, the market economy, human rights, etc. Unfortunately, Ukraine does not fit into this system of common values since it fails to measure up to some of the conditions required for joining the European Union.
“In a recent talk with me, a Ukrainian philosopher called Europe an old museum, an attraction for visitors but a place that might soon become covered with dust. I agree. If old Europe fails to find itself in a new Europe incorporating Eastern Europe with its values, including Christian ones, it will hardly become what it aims to be, a new cultural, economical, and political superpower, which will not be anyone’s rival but will become a major player on the international arena alongside the United States and the Asian tigers.”
“What is your attitude toward an issue much debated by the media here on who is in greater need of whom, Ukraine of Europe or Europe of Ukraine? Some Ukrainian politicians are building their images on the concept that Europe is no yardstick for Ukraine and the Ukrainians can make do without the European Union.”
“Well, I think, this is also a certain complex.”
“Does Europe really need Ukraine as a territory, as a polity, as a certain culture? If yes, then in what capacity?”
“Idealistically speaking, Europe needs Ukraine because its culture is so rich, but the European Union might not currently, for Ukraine could create a number of problems. Yet, when the Soviet empire, the Warsaw Pact, and COMECON collapsed ten years ago there was a definite enthusiasm in the West that everything could be rebuilt, with Europe expanding and the postcommunist nations integrating into Europe. “Those supporting the idea recalled how it was under the Marshall Plan after World War II when massive American assistance helped the countries of Western Europe to put their economies back on their feet and strengthened their security. Initially, it looked as if similar transformations could have taken place throughout Europe. But when serious economic talks began with Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic it became clear that the process would take over ten years, perhaps, 20 or 30, because the requirements for joining the European Union are very strict.
“There is a growing awareness that Ukraine will apply for EU membership, but not now and for a different EU because the accession of newcomers Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and perhaps Romania and the Baltic states is likely to change the political and economic profile of the European Union.”
“Does this mean you believe that Europe’s present stand toward Ukraine indicates that it is opting for some kind of transition period?”
“I think so. Ukraine is ten years old and no longer a child. Ukraine is already taking its university admittance exams and has scored high on some of them. All sensible analysts cannot ignore that in these ten years Ukraine has strengthened its independence, become a sovereign state, and is beginning to invest its potential in the creation of a new Europe. This is so, whether we in Europe want to admit this or not. This was possible because Ukraine succeeded in stabilizing its relationship with Russia and, in my view, averting possible conflicts on its territory and nearby. Let’s not dwell here on the issues of Ukraine’s voluntary nuclear disarmament and the closure of Chornobyl. Ukraine has taken a step toward Europe, and I believe that reasonable politicians are well aware of this. The time has now come to push this grown-up child, Ukraine, toward the right track. Ukraine will have to take the same exams which are now being successfully passed by the Hungarians, Poles, and Czechs to be enrolled in the university named the European Union. Russia, Ukraine’s major Eastern neighbor, also shows a tendency to establish closer links with the European Union, not as its full-fledged member but as a partner that wants to become part of the West. This tendency was obvious in Yeltsin’s Russia, just as it now is with Putin in power. For this reason, when opting for integration into Europe Ukraine does not necessarily conflict with Russian interests. This is a unique historical moment, and everybody should take advantage of it. I hope that this is perfectly understood in the West. For this reason, I believe Ukraine should concentrate on passing one more test to keep the doors to the EU open. I think Ukraine should focus on closer cooperation with Europe within the framework of its new defense and foreign policy, the policy of European security. Here we are also blazing the trail, with few in the West and in Ukraine fully aware of where this trail will take us.
“Europeans, in any case Europe’s major nations like France, Germany, the United Kingdom and Holland have agreed to create a joint European army, its own defense alliance, of course, not pointed against the United States or Russia.
“The Americans do not seem to be very happy about this. They’re nervous and understandably so, because they are not sure where the Europeans’ road will lead, that maybe they will want to leave NATO. In fact, however, no one in Europe wants this at the moment and will not want it in the foreseeable future. A unique opportunity, never present in the past ten years, has emerged now for Ukraine to join, perhaps jointly with Russia, in the process of building Europe by sharing its defense potential to create and strengthen Europe’s security.”
“Is it true that the West is paying little attention to what is going on in Ukraine?”
“If you scan German newspapers and magazines or watch television, you will see that our experts on Ukraine are following up on what is really going on. But in Germany we have our own scandals. Or, open French newspapers, and you will see what scandals they have. In France, the son of the former foreign minister is on trial. In Italy, there’s the terrifying story about the former prime minister allegedly contracting a killing. Other countries also have had their share of scandal, but the links between countries have never fallen victim to such scandals. I mean, the scandal in Ukraine should not be in the center of attention. Of much more importance is to be aware of all the positives that have been attained in the relationship between the European Union and Ukraine and to open up new avenues for cooperation, for example, in the defense sector. It could include the production of rockets for space programs. We should also get back to the idea of joint assembly of the An-70 aircraft, a project, in which Germany is showing increasing interest. Ukraine could become a major link in the transport corridor between Europe and Asia for the transit of oil, gas, and goods. This is what Ukraine and its president should be preoccupied with. Then much of the scandal will fade into the background. The way out for Ukraine lies in pragmatic cooperation with the West.”
“Do you really think that there are problems with the freedom of expression in Ukraine, that human rights are being violated in some way or another and the relationship between the state and society differ significantly from those in Germany, France, or Italy?”
“Of course, there is a difference in how the media operate in Ukraine and in Germany where third-generation journalists have got rid of totalitarian thinking and work without complexes and regardless of the authorities. I would put it like this: the press in Germany is so liberal and free that it can do whatever it wants. There are certain mainstream rules they have to stick to, but in general it would not be an exaggeration to say that with its strong democratic institutions, division of powers, and civil society, Germany and other old European countries can be a good example for the world.
“Ukraine is ten years old. I believe that many positive results have been achieved in this period of time. There is something I can’t agree with — your economy is not open enough for Western investors to feel as comfortable in Ukraine as they do in the Czech Republic, Hungary, or Poland. The media in Ukraine is basically free, although I also think that a generation or even two will have to pass before journalists will be independent enough to start to work as effectively as their colleagues in the West.”
“I wonder, if the Germans treat their oligarchs the way we do here?”
“German oligarchs appeared after the war. Becoming very rich, much richer than the rest of the population, they created enterprises and financial empires. But my impression is that this was done in more a civilized way than here. There were laws, clear legislation on the private property, there was the constitution that nobody changed, the Marshall Plan that was regulated by the United States and other participant countries, like the stabilization act for the Balkans which regulates economic, political, and financial issues. The situation in Ukraine is somewhat different because the West did not take part in the sale of state-owned property. For this reason, things are pretty much the same here as they were in the forties and fifties in Germany.
“I think that in Ukrainian society oligarchs are also viewed differently as there are many envious persons and people who believe that everything going on here is unjust. But Putin in Russia, for instance, has taken a wise step to civilize his oligarchs by saying “All right, we will not take anything from you now (we cannot do it anyway) as you yourselves are the product of our young capitalism but, please, try to focus on the creation of the conditions for a social framework.” Such economic laws would prop up society. I think that sooner or later Ukraine will follow suit — it may already be doing so.
“I think that German journalists simply borrowed the word oligarch from the Ukrainian and Russian media without fully understanding its meaning. Still, the problem is that there is an opinion in the West, and a definitely justified one, that certain Ukrainian oligarchic groups do not welcome Western competition on the Ukrainian market. There are certain hurdles for Western businesses, and I do not mean big businesses. Daimler Chrysler and Siemens have cleared these hurdles, but Ukraine would also benefit if medium investors from Germany come to Ukraine to invest in small regional businesses. Such investors need support. They have to confront, first, the Ukrainian bureaucracy, which starts to repulse them even at the border and, second, the huge interests of large oligarchs acting under the slogan that they want investment, but let the investors stay home in Germany.”
