There are few colorful characters in the Verkhovna Rada, especially among those in power. Many will have noticed that the Party of Regions has “fighting” MPs, who actively engage in scuffles, yet who have not filed a single report. It also has a group of intellectuals who write draft laws, often speak from the rostrum, but loathe fighting. Vladyslav LUKIANOV is a unique person in this respect. He will not miss a single brawl, but also manages to comment on them.
The election of a new president was obviously the major event of 2010. What were the president’s most important moves, in your opinion?
“Naturally, it was the formation of a new government. That was the start of it all, the formation of the team. If you haven’t formed a team, you can’t start a single serious project. Cadres decide everything.”
The formation of that team provoked many questions — particularly the so-called coalition of the “trunks” [MPs who switched their political affiliation to join the coalition. – Ed.]
“Since the times of Ancient Rome there have been two antagonistic traditions in law: the law of justice and the so-called written law. If we proceed from the law of justice, the people’s voice is primary, as is the MP’s conscience.”
In 2010 Ukraine also became a presidential republic.
“Surprisingly, the transition from parliamentary to presidential republic was quiet and calm. It didn’t cause stormy emotions or conflicts, only a languid discussion. And the majority decided that in such a complicated situation there had to be a captain on the bridge who would firmly hold the steer. Probably it fell in with the voters’ sentiment.”
The writer Andrii Kurkov has said that President Viktor Yanukovych is following a Russian model of power consolidation. Many others share this opinion. Do you?
“If you mean to say that we are heading towards a single-party system, it does not reflect the Ukrainian reality.”
We have a rigid power vertical. All decisions are made in one office on Bankova Street. The docile majority carries out all the president’s orders. Doesn’t this resemble Putin’s rule over Russia?
“The discussion between the authorities and the opposition has never stopped in Ukrainian society. On the other hand, after the change of power, the opposition has got to change, too. And, as far as I can see and comprehend the situation, transformation processes are under way not only in the government, but also within the opposition. New political alliances are arising, and they are trying to claim the leadership in political forces on the national scale. I believe this may give rise to something new.”
You identify yourselves as the government of reformers. Last year the Tax Code was passed, and the court reform was carried out, as well as the first stage of the administrative reform. Now, by all appearances, the pension reform is next. A relevant draft law was proposed in the Verkhovna Rada at the close of the year, then it was called off, just to be re-introduced later. When are you finally planning to launch it?
“It is clear that we cannot postpone it all for 10 years. But neither can we jump out of the window half-dressed, as it may happen when there is a fire. The situation is difficult, but it is manageable. I think a program to reform the pension system will be proposed. I mean the creation of a three-tier pension system. Nowadays, there only exists a mutual system of the first tier. The elements of the third tier can be seen in the private pension funds.
“At present, we do not have an obligatory private system of pension insurance. These draft laws now under development. Writing a good, high-quality bill which regulates complex social and economic relations is a complicated matter. Everything must be balanced.
“Several teams of experts are now working on these drafts both in the Cabinet of Ministers and the Presidential Administration. Specialists from research institutions are also involved.
“How soon will this be done? I reckon in the first half of the year a large proportion of these drafts will be developed and proposed. I hope they are systemic, well-coordinated documents. But sometimes teams of developers cannot quickly coordinate their work.”
Will the retirement age be raised only for women, or will men be affected as well?
“Today, there is no answer to this question. The reason is simple: this draft has not yet been fully developed and approved. But in my opinion, if we raise the retirement age for women, then, despite all the talk of gender equality, the difference between women and men must be kept.”
“THERE ARE NEARLY 30 ITEMS WHICH ARE ALREADY PROVEN”
At the beginning of the interview you seemed to jokingly say that everything was getting better. However, recently Ukraine was officially demoted to the bottom of the list of European countries with regard to economic liberty. Among the world’s 179 countries, Ukraine ended up between Uzbekistan and Chad. How can you account for this?
“The proposed legislation, as well as the passed laws, came into effect only on January 1. And I am convinced that with regard to the effects of the new legislation regulating the tax system, the registration of new enterprises and the like, we will make a dramatic move as soon as the results of 2011 have been taken into consideration.”
So Tymoshenko is to blame even for this?
“No, no one is trying to shift the blame here. Although even the supporters of the old team admit that they failed. There were too many mistakes. And today, these mistakes are their alibi — barring cases of pure theft.”
And how can you account for Ukraine’s exclusion from the group of Free Countries in the Freedom House rating? Can you see any links to the interrogations of entrepreneurs or Tymoshenko, or Lutsenko’s arrest?
“As far as Lutsenko goes, I don’t know how such an inadequate person could have been appointed minister of internal affairs.”
Was the detention procedure adequate? 11 men! After all, he was not hiding or trying to run away.
“You say he wasn’t hiding or running away. But what is Lutsenko famous for? A notorious drunk row and the queer situations he always found himself in.”
We aren’t discussing Lutsenko’s professionalism now, are we?
“I’m not speaking of the detainee’s professionalism, I am speaking of his personality type. Mentally, he is quite an unbalanced person who is capable of virtually anything, any manner of escapade.”
And what is wrong with Tymoshenko’s personality type? From a man’s or purely human perspective, didn’t you feel for a lady who was interrogated for 11 hours on end without an interval? She wasn’t even allowed to have a meal!
“I do share your sympathy for Mrs. Tymoshenko, she had a tiny salary, too. And no earnings on the side, on top of that. But she was a very frugal lady, able to scrape up a sum for a very expensive security service for herself and her family. And even now, when she is jobless, she somehow manages to make both ends meet. She barely earns anything at all, but she still manages to look great. A very thrifty lady, indeed!”
You can gloat to your heart’s content, but the accusations against Tymoshenko look ludicrous. She used the “Japanese money” to pay the pensions. Is it all you were able to come up with?
“That’s not true. She has made up this story herself and says that she is being tried because she paid the pensions. As far as I am acquainted with the results of the audit carried out by international companies, more than 30 items have been proven. And there are nearly a dozen others, which were not included in the report because the evidence was still being examined. In order to avoid accusations without clear evidence, only a few episodes were chosen. Although actually there are several hundred such cases.
“If a pretty woman (and she is pretty indeed) had disposed of funds illegally, and some of her actions fall within the purview of the Criminal Code, she should be made answerable by the laws of Ukraine.”
And how will you account for the fact that in Ukraine, after 19 years of independence, we have a political refugee? I mean Bohdan Danylyshyn.
“This decision stirred up a storm of surprise and resentment in my heart. This man is accused of economic crimes, he is responsible for a slump in living standards in this country and for embezzling tens of millions of hryvnias — and he is hiding behind the status of a political refugee!”
This decision may have been taken in the aggregate. The overall situation in the country was taken into account.
“I believe they should have taken investigative action, examined the documents, and established facts. I cannot account for this decision logically.”
“I WAS ABOVE THE SCUFFLE”
There is one photograph that has toured the front pages of all the world’s newspapers, in which you are carried about, feet in the air, during the ratification of the Black Sea Fleet Treaty. It reappeared in Ukrainska Pravda once again lately. How do you feel when you see this photo?
“I was above the scuffle (smiling). Just fancy that six guys are holding your friend while one punches him in the face. Would you think of anything else to do but jump down and help him out? Come on, tell me, what would you do?”
I can’t say, I’m afraid, I’ve never found myself in such situations. But it somehow happens that members of the Party of Regions get beaten up, while the opposition ends up in hospital after all these brawls.
“We never started a fight.”
And on December 16, 2010 you were not the first either?
“This resembles the story of hapless terrorists who kidnapped a baby, and then complained that they were treated too roughly and stopped from completing their act of terror.”
Who’s talking about terrorists? There was a time when you blocked the rostrum for two months, and no one hit you on the head with a stool.
“We had balloons and banners with us, whereas our opponents brought chains and crowbars.”
But they never used them.
“It’s a lie. Such crowbars were at the Ukraina Printery. It looks as if they had been brought from the same warehouse. I was at the printery and collected those crowbars myself, and I remember the bruise I had from them. I remember the tear gas, I remember everything very well… I’ve got a video, and I’ll show you.” (gets out a cell phone and shows the video)
I don’t know what was going on at the printery, I only know that after the events of December 16, 2010 several members of BYuT ended up in hospital.
“It only testifies to the fact that this team is good for nothing.”
…While you are good for something. On April 27, 2010 you leased Sevastopol to Russia for half a century.
“You’d better not start here. We were deprived of a part of the Black Sea shelf, which was given to Romania, with its fields of oil and gas. This is just our territorial integrity. Did this not happen? Or isn’t it a part of our history? How much of its ancestral lands has Ukraine lost? So, which of us is a patriot? To the accompaniment of all the empty talks and jingoist slogans we were robbed of half of the country. And no one raised an objection! The border is demarked without taking the island of Zmiiny into account, which is contrary to maritime law. I’ve got a maritime education, that’s why I can clearly see the core of the matter and the challenges there.”
Doesn’t Ukraine need protection against Russia? Or is Romania the only threat?
“As a sovereign power, we must defend ourselves against anyone who would encroach upon our rights — if there are any grounds to do so.”
YOU MAY FIND IT FUNNY, BUT I AM FOND OF CHESS
You want to be interviewed as a serious expert from the budget committee. Meanwhile, in the parliament you have virtually replaced Nestor Shufrych. There hasn’t been a single brawl without you…
“But I didn’t take Shufrych’s place. We are on good terms (laughing). I wouldn’t say that it’s my love for adventures, but I have had quite a few experiences when I did interfere. The most dramatic one was about six years ago. I was walking from a parking lot with my son, when a drunk hulk came staggering out of a bar, and began to bash a girl. I couldn’t stand aside and went and helped the girl. Many would have just passed by.”
What do you do to keep fit?
“I don’t do any martial arts, but I enjoy jogging. You may find it funny, but I am fond of chess. Sometimes the stereotypes of a certain person are very different from reality.”
Your father is a member of the Donetsk Oblast Rada. Which of you introduced the other into the world of politics? Was it you or your father?
“I guess it was him who brought me in. My father has been elected to the local councils five or six times. He is very good at economics, budget legislation, microeconomics, and enterprise management. I’m proud of my father.
“I have been elected to the legislature four times: twice to the Donetsk Oblast Rada, and twice to the Verkhovna Rada. I am proud that when I was elected for the first time, 11,000 people voted for me, whereas the second time, after four years of work, I had 40,000 votes. This must somehow be indicative of what I had been doing.”
