A fresh spy scandal has erupted between Georgia and Russia. Russia’s Foreign Ministry has called the arrest of four Russian spies a “farce” and a provocation of Mikhail Saakashvili’s regime aimed at tarnishing Russia’s image on the eve of the NATO and OSCE summit. But what is really behind the incident? Is it the right time to pass a law known as the Charter of Freedom, which calls for the lustration of individuals who secretly cooperated with Soviet security services? Is Georgia going to use its right to veto Russia’s WTO membership as an instrument for restoring its territorial integrity? These and other questions were raised during an interview with Grigol KATAMADZE, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Georgia to Ukraine.
“The successful accomplishment of this mission shows that the law-enforcement reform is producing positive results. I am referring to the highly-efficient professional work of Georgia’s law-enforcement bodies in breaking up a spy ring. The years-long operation was made public just now because the situation has reached the boiling point. Incidentally, this is not the end of the affair: the investigation is going on, and there is some documented evidence. It is the court that will pronounce the final verdict, but there is no doubt at all that this spy ring worked for the Russian Federation.
“Incidentally, this is not the first time in the past four years that Georgian law-enforcers have uncovered individuals who work for the secret services of other states, including Russia. In 2006 Russia also denied [accusations], but was then forced to admit its involvement. In this case, 13 people were arrested, including nine citizens of Georgia (air force pilots) and four Russians. There are no grounds to claim it was done to time with the summit because there were no summits involved in the previous cases.”
Mr. Ambassador, all the media recently reported that Georgia had approved in the first reading a bill referred to as the Charter of Freedom. Is it not too late to pass this law? The Soviet Union collapsed almost 20 years ago.
“Yes, we were somewhat late to adopt this law. It contains a clear-cut list of offices that cannot be held by citizens of Georgia who worked secretly for the Soviet Union’s security service, no matter whether they provided written or oral consent to do so. This is a major law which is about, among other things, the protection of national interests and strategic state-run facilities. I do not know when it will be passed, but I think this law is becoming more and more indispensable, and the latest events only confirm this. Although the law came late, it is needed to finally put an end, at least in Georgia, to Soviet ideology.”
Does your parliament take into account the experience of Poland, in which the ruling party used the lustration law against its political adversaries?
“Sorry, this may be an awkward analogy, for this approach allows justifying or condemning anything. For example, two years ago the opposition conducted mass-scale protest actions, saying that President Saakashvili had usurped power and that the constitution should be altered to restrict the president’s unlimited powers and broaden the functions of the top representative body. The government met the opposition halfway: a constitutional commission was formed, in which the opposition had an advantage. The commission worked on a draft constitution for 18 months, and when we were at the home stretch and it was time for parliament to make a decision, the same oppositionists who had demanded restricting presidential powers and expanding those of the parliament, i.e., in fact opting for a parliamentary-presidential republic, began to persuade their followers and Georgian people just to the contrary. They claimed President Saakashvili was preparing some scenario for himself. But the elections — both parliamentary and presidential — are still a long time away and, as the president is saying very clearly, we have a lot of things to do in this period. We should not ponder now on what the parliamentary and presidential elections in 2012 and 2013, respectively, will be like. What we should do is work every day so that ordinary people see improvements on a daily basis. But if we keep stopping and waiting for someone to pass judgments, we will not go very far. And we can really see that Georgia has made very serious progress, as far as reforms are concerned.”
How serious?
“According to Doing Business 2011, a survey conducted by the World Bank and the International Finance Corporation among 174 countries, Georgia is one of the top successful reformers and ranks 12th in the ease of doing business, 8th in starting a business, 7th in dealing with construction permits, and 2nd (after Saudi Arabia) in registering property. And all this was done by the team that came to power in 2004, when Saakashvili was elected president.
“Over six years, we have had to simultaneously tackle the problems of reforms, economic liberalization, and corruption, as well as to defend our position on the international arena, regarding the restoration of territorial integrity and resisting Russia’s attempts to dismember Georgia. At the same time, we tried as hard as we could to prevent the possibility of the occupation of Georgian territories, but this nevertheless occurred in August 2008 and 20 percent of Georgia’s territory remains occupied to this day. And if you look at all these difficulties and at what we had before 2004, you will see a striking difference. We are planning to open a photo exhibition, Georgia 2000-Georgia 2010, on November 22. We are showing various sides of Georgia via the two sets of photos — of the years 2000 and 2010. I think those who have not yet been to Georgia will have a good opportunity to see — at Kyiv’s St. Sophia Cathedral for a month — what Georgia really was and is today.”
Can Georgia’s right to veto Russia’s admission to the WTO help your country solve the problem of territorial integrity? Many experts think that Moscow should show initiative and Tbilisi can negotiate.
“The point is that there is no customs check point in the frontier area between Georgia, a World Trade Organization member, and the potential candidate for membership near Psou (the Abkhazian sector of the Georgian-Russian border) or near the Roks tunnel (the South Ossetian sector of the Georgian-Russian border). Russia is saying today: we will not negotiate with Georgia’s political leadership. But who are they to turn to get Georgia’s consent to Russia being admitted to the World Trade Organization? There should be no ‘no-category’ in international politics. One must always leave room for maneuvers and try to find points of contact. Incidentally, our president has been reiterating, over the past six months, and addressing journalists at international conferences and forums: Georgia is prepared to sit down at the negotiating table with Russia without any preconditions.
“We have been suggesting to Russia in the past six years that our countries start a civilized dialog — the kind Russia may conduct with some other state in which [Russia] has interests. What I cannot understand is why Russia cannot have a civilized dialog with Georgia.”
A dialog on restoring Georgia’s territorial integrity?
“We also used to say before the war: let us sit down at the negotiating table and decide in what way Georgian border guards and customs services will man checkpoints at these sectors together with their Russian counterparts. Incidentally, with due respect for international standards and relations, we have met our neighbor, Armenia, halfway and agreed to the opening of one more checkpoint, in Upper Lars, in the Kazbek area between Georgia and Russia so that goods might be transported from Russia to Armenia, and vice versa, via Georgia. But Georgian citizens and goods are not allowed to cross the border. How is Russia going to join the World Trade Organization if it has in fact been imposing economic sanctions on Georgia, a WTO member since 2006? In spite of this, we are not applying economic sanctions against Russia.
“Moreover, Georgia is the only post-Soviet country for which Russia has introduced visa requirements. We have even essentially simplified visa requirements for Russia after the Russian-Georgian war in August 2008. Russian citizens can easily receive a visa at any legitimate checkpoint. At the same time, to get a Russian visa, Georgian citizens are required to show the request of direct relatives in Russia. I am not going to hurt anybody, but I must say that if Russia wants to join the WTO, a club of civilized states, it must take a civilized attitude to all members of this organization, including Georgia.”
If you don’t mind, let us turn to Georgian-Ukrainian relations. Visiting Georgia the other day, Ukraine’s defense minister flew to your country through a Turkish air corridor because Russia prohibited flying over its territory. Does this visit mean that military-technical cooperation between our countries is on the rise?
“I like your question. I thought you would say ‘is renewing.’ We have never ceased to cooperate with your country in any field. This was a very important, productive and useful visit for both sides. Ukraine is a very important political and military player, not only in this region but also worldwide. So, in my view, Ukraine must defend its positions and interests everywhere, including our region.
“I think we will be systematically developing our cooperation in the military-technical field. It is a good opportunity for both countries to develop the potential which, thank God, they have and must make use of. It is far easier for two, rather than one, countries to do so. Why not use these opportunities for training specialists? And, incidentally, not only Georgian specialists in Ukraine but also Ukrainian ones in Georgia. Our country has a unique modern-day mountain infantry school. Representatives of Britain, the US, and some other countries study there. So I think if Ukraine is interested in this, it will be able to make use of the Sachkhere training grounds.
“In the course of the talks, the two defense ministers discussed the possibility of Georgian servicemen taking part in exercises that will be held in Ukraine under various auspices, and of Ukrainian servicemen in Georgia. Both sides are prepared to do this.”
Mr. Ambassador, Ukrainian television and other media often quote Ukrainian officials and MPs who positively comment on the experience of reform in Georgia. Do you think Ukraine is using this experience?
“If one can see and comment publicly on the success of reforms in Georgia, this means there is a strong government. The present-day Ukrainian leadership may not be very interested in speaking publicly about Georgia’s successes, but still it is not afraid to say that a small country, which everybody considered unhappy, has done every much to reform itself.
“As to whether or not our practices are being adopted, I must say that we have been carrying out reforms not for somebody to adopt them or, God forbid, to export this experience. But if Ukraine, our very important partner, evinces interest, we will be ready to share experience so that you, our Ukrainian brothers, do not make mistakes in carrying out certain reforms. From this angle, Georgian experience can be interesting. We are post-Soviet countries, and all spheres in Georgia used to be steeped in corruption. And everybody used to say it is impossible to eradicate this. We are far from believing that corruption has been completely rooted out. I do not think any country can boast of this.
“You may have heard that 15,000 Georgian traffic policemen were dismissed in one day. Yes, it is painful. Yes, 15,000 traffic policemen are dissatisfied, as most certainly are their families. But four million Georgians are satisfied. Can you see the difference? It is therefore right to take such radical steps in favor of the absolute majority, after making a proper assessment and cracking down, in this case, on a relatively small number of people.”
