The US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey R. Pyatt’s another interview with The Day [recorded on November 9] began with the words: “Your newspaper has recently published comments by John Herbst and Steven Pifer. I appreciate this.” Following the clarification that from time to time The Day also publishes comments by other former US Ambassadors, William Taylor and William Miller – everyone except Roman Popadiuk – Pyatt explained that “Roman is busy with other things, but the rest is pretty involved in cooperation with Ukraine, and it’s a good thing.”
In recent days Ukraine saw a number of events: a sharp increase in attacks by pro-Russian militants in Donbas, which many regarded as an attempt to disrupt the fragile ceasefire established by the Minsk agreement; the conflict around the Prosecutor General’s Office; the arrests of UKROP party members. Readers of The Day will doubtless be interested to assess the opinion on those events held by the representative of the most powerful country in the world.
Mr. Ambassador, we the Ukrainians are very grateful to the US for the fact that such an event as the unveiling of the Holodomor Memorial occurred in Washington on November 7. Our newspaper is very committed to this topic, we even had American James Mace on the staff, who did a lot to have the Congress hold hearings on the Holodomor. What do you think we still need to do to have the world learn more about this disaster that led to the post-genocidal syndrome which still influences the course of events in Ukraine?
“I would say two things. One, I hope you saw the strong statement from President Obama and the White House which was published over the weekend, and reflected President Obama and the administration’s strong attention to the terrible history of the Holodomor and the importance of ensuring that it is not forgotten. I think in a context of contemporary Ukraine an equally important issue, and one I would emphasize, is not allowing Russia to rewrite Ukraine’s history. The whole story of what has happened in Crimea and Donbas since March of last year has been one of manipulating the truth, where Russia has used information as a weapon, and has tried to distort Ukraine’s history, has created this manufactured narrative about separatism in the Donbas or oppression of Russian-speaking communities in Ukraine. So, I see the phenomenon and the history of the Holodomor as first of all a tragic incident in the history of modern Europe, but it’s also one of the first cases of large-scale, organized genocide in Europe, and is highly relevant to Russia’s efforts today to distort and rewrite Ukraine’s own history. So, I’m very glad that we were able to have the unveiling of this new memorial in Washington, D.C., it’s important that the First Lady of Ukraine Mrs. Poroshenko was also in attendance, and certainly I myself look forward to seeing the memorial the next time I’m in Washington and have some free time.”
Sir, you are right that Russia is trying to distort our history; what can you say, then, about the situation that is developing in eastern Ukraine, where Ukrainians are persecuted for having Ukrainian symbols at home: the flag and the trident, our national emblem. Is it not similar to the genocide that took place in 1932-33, even if it is probably not repeating on that scale yet? Does the world see the danger?
“I would say first one, as you yourself pointed out, we are talking about several orders of magnitude in difference, the scale is not the same. My point is, it’s the Russian technique, which is very similar, of distorting Ukraine’s history for its political and strategic ends, but I think it would mischaracterize and disrespect the history of the Holodomor to compare this awful episode with the killing of 8,000 people in eastern Ukraine as a consequence of the war that Russia has brought to this country. But again, we are absolutely committed to standing with Ukrainian people, that is a message that Secretary Pritzker brought to her village, to Prytsky, and to Bila Tserkva when she was here last month, and it’s one you will hear from other visitors we have coming to Ukraine in the near future. America is standing with Ukrainian people, committed to supporting Ukraine’s defense of its territory, of its sovereignty, and its independence, and we are committed to supporting the government as it sticks to the very difficult task of economic and political reform.”
Can you clarify the precise amount of the US military assistance to be provided to Ukraine next year, because I have seen various bills? One of them sets the amount at 200 million dollars, another at 300 million dollars.
“So, let’s break it up into two pieces. We have provided slightly more than 260 million dollars in security sector assistance since the revolution. That has included training, which I would argue is the most important assistance we have provided, but also things like Humvees, and counter-mortar radars, we will have two counter battery radars, which will be delivered this week at Yavoriv, and we are going to continue that. As Assistant Secretary Slotkin announced last week, the current NDAA, the current defense appropriations bill, includes 300 million dollars in additional resources. So, this is a substantial increase and a major step forward. It has to work its way now through the final process, but we have already started the conversation with our Ukrainian partners about how they believe those additional resources which Congress is providing can most effectively be utilized to support the capacity of the Ukrainian military to defend your own territory. But in this area, just like the others, the task of reform is job number one. We see our training efforts as part of a larger effort to support reform and transformation of the Ukrainian military.”
Will the US start to supply Ukraine with lethal defensive weapons? After all, even the bill itself provides 50 million dollars for this purpose.
“ Yes. President Obama, the White House has made very clear we are not doing lethal assistance right now. That could change in the future, in response to developments on the ground. But at least for now, the assistance that we provide is anticipated to be non-lethal. But, it is a very large sum, and frankly, you have seen over the past year and a half that the level of sophistication of the non-lethal assistance we provide has steadily grown. So, we started up providing MREs and basic equipment, we are now providing encrypted radios, and night vision, and very modern counter battery radar systems.”
You mentioned John Herbst. Meanwhile, he said in a comment for The Day that the US should provide military assistance to Ukraine to the tune of a billion dollars over three years. What do you say to that?
“Yes. Well, Ambassador Herbst no longer works in government, and he can talk about where we are going to go over three years. But where we are right now, I’m very pleased with the additional 300 million dollars that Assistant Secretary Slotkin announced, which represents a major increase in the level of our security assistance.”
Mr. Ambassador, next meeting of the political group will be held in Minsk tomorrow. However, we see increasing escalation in the Donbas on the part of the Russian-supported separatists. It seems that Russia wants to undermine the fragile ceasefire, which was in force since September 1. Also, Sergey Lavrov said at the last meeting of the Normandy Four foreign ministers in Berlin that the implementation of the Minsk Agreements should be delayed to 2016. What is the US reaction to this turn of events?
“Well, if the Minsk’s implementation is postponed to 2016, and sanctions should be extended to 2016. We are very clear that sanctions relief is going to be tied to full implementation of the Minsk Agreement, including the restoration of the Ukrainian control over the border, withdrawal of all Russian fighters and equipment, and the release of all hostages, including high-profile prisoners like Nadia Savchenko and Oleh Sentsov. So, Russia has a great deal of work still to do before we can say that Russia is implementing its side of the Minsk Agreement. Over the short term, we strongly welcome the fact that the level of shooting has diminished on the contact line, it means there is less human suffering, but as you point out, there are still regular instances of skirmishing, there was a substantial massed attack over the weekend near Mariinka, and it’s very important that Ukraine tells the world what it is doing to comply with its promises for ceasefire and the withdrawal of weapons as provided for in the September package of measures, but also to make sure that the world understands the actions that Russia and its separatist proxies are taking to defy the ceasefire.”
Photo by Ruslan KANIUKA, The Day
Some experts have expressed concern that the presidential campaign that has begun in the US will make Washington pay less attention to Ukraine. Will Vladimir Putin be able to use it to commit further acts of aggression against our country?
“I have a very different view. As you know, I was in Washington on Thursday and was able to meet with all of our senior leadership at the State Department and at the White House. It was very clear to me that people continue to follow developments here in Ukraine very closely, are keenly interested in the success of President Poroshenko and Prime Minister Yatseniuk’s efforts and will remain engaged. We understand that what’s happening here is not just about Ukraine, it’s about the future of Europe and the Euro-Atlantic security system. So, we are going to remain engaged.”
It is clear to everyone that years of oligarchic infighting have weakened the country, and Putin skillfully used this weakness for the annexation of Crimea and the beginning of the aggression in eastern Ukraine. Our publication has long predicted a “Minsk pocket,” believing that Kuchma-built clan-oligarchic system will lead to that outcome. What do you say to that?
“Well, you know, I have said, including in my recent speech, that Ukraine is fighting two wars, one is the war with Russia, the other is the war against corruption, against oligarchic interests, for reforms, for deepening of democracy. That second war is just as important as the first one. The leading actors in that second war are oftentimes in civil society, they are the people who are trying to attack these problems. I have been clear about our concerns about the situation around the Prosecutor General’s Office and the problem of corruption there. And obviously, these big oligarchic interests have gotten as big and as rich as they are in part by manipulating the justice system. But I will also make the opposite point, which is: for American business, for American investors the number-one impediment to increasing their involvement here in Ukraine is concern about corruption. And if the government can demonstrate that it is decisively tackling this problem, I am confident that our companies, our investors will respond, they will bring their money, their technology, and that will also help to weaken the hold that oligarchic interests have held on this country in the past. It is to be welcomed that both Prime Minister Yatseniuk and President Poroshenko have spoken as clearly as they have on these issues, but it’s not just the matter of using the right words, it’s the matter of actually taking action.”
We see here in Ukraine that the recent developments around the Prosecutor General’s Office serve only to stress the need for deep reforms in this area. On the other hand, we have the problematic arrest of young tycoon Hennadii Korban, who was able to withstand Russian aggression, and now it seems that he is subject to persecution by this system, led by the Prosecutor General’s Office. How do you feel about that?
“Well, first of all I’m not going to speak on the case of Mr. Korban because it’s before the courts, it’s for the courts to decide his fate. My point on all of these issues has been that the challenge in Ukraine is to develop a justice system where the law applies equally to all, whether you are Rinat Akhmetov, or the guy who owns a little food store out on the corner here outside the embassy. And that’s the real challenge to develop a system which is viewed by the Ukrainian people as just and as reliable. And that is the effort the president is now engaged in. I was very encouraged to see today that in his comments with High Commissioner Mogherini President Poroshenko indicated that he hopes that the constitutional amendments for judicial reform as recommended by the Venice Commission will be presented in the Rada this week. I think that will be a very welcome step forward and something that the United States supports.”
What do you think about the role of the Georgian reformers who hold positions in the Ukrainian government? In your opinion, does Ukraine lack its own politicians or figures who have unutilized potential for reform?
“No, to the contrary. One of the things that are most impressive to me is the quality of human capital here, and I had a meeting maybe three weeks ago that Minister Abromavicius hosted with all of the donor ambassadors. And present at that meeting were almost all of the deputy ministers, from justice, interior, defense, agriculture, economy, finance. These are all people – first of all they’re extremely young, in their thirties and forties, they all speak multiple languages, they are all educated in the West. They are the real engines of reform in this country, and I think it’s something that makes me quite profoundly optimistic about where Ukraine is going over the long term, that all of this new generation of the leadership is beginning to come up through the system. The Georgian reformers, as you call them, you know, people like Governor Saakashvili in Odesa or Eka Zguladze in Interior, their advantage is – they come in and they can be catalysts, they can shake things up. I think, for instance, in the police sector, without the courage and the willingness to change the system that Vice Minister Zguladze has demonstrated we would not be where we are with the new patrol police. But the fact is now, this has become institutionalized and something that the whole ministry, Mr. Avakov, prime minister are all working to implement. And I think that’s very much the hope in places like Odesa as well. You have Governor Saakashvili, but you also have Ukrainians like Sasha Borovyk, like Yulia Marushevska, who are part of his team, and those are people who are going to build a new Ukraine.”
Now after the local elections in Ukraine, with the return of many notorious politicians and election of many arguably pro-Russian parties or politicians to local government bodies, do you see a threat of revenge?
“No, I see the opposite, in fact. What I saw was, first of all, a continued yearning for reform, for change. Ukrainian people are impatient, they want to see a faster reform, they are not looking to the past, they are looking to the future, and I think it’s quite encouraging you have some new political forces that have emerged unto the scene, which are now demonstrating that they have the capacity to win votes and win elections across the country. I don’t see revanche at all, but I see a country that is looking to the future.”
You know that President Petro Poroshenko announced the course of integration with NATO, achieving NATO standards in this country, and a majority of the population supports this course. What do you think about the prospects of Ukraine’s membership in the alliance?
“First of all, this connects directly to the task of defense sector reform that I talked about earlier. It’s very important that we had the NATO secretary general here in Kyiv last month, we support the fact that NATO is enhancing its institutional relationship with Ukraine, and we see a critical role for all of our NATO partners in helping to raise the defensive capabilities of the Ukrainian state. I was very encouraged by what I had seen in Riga over the weekend, at the Riga conference, and I was very encouraged to hear there, I spoke to the defense minister, that Latvia is moving ahead to deploy its soldiers to Yavoriv, so we will have Canadian, American, Lithuanian, and now Latvian soldiers helping to train Ukrainian military at Yavoriv. The United Kingdom is also actively engaged. This is a multinational effort, and our NATO partners are a key part of all of that.”
Can you comment on the recent telephone conversation between Vice President Joe Biden and Poroshenko? It seems that this was the last warning to the Ukrainian authorities requesting them to start reforms, including the fight against corruption, otherwise the US will not provide financial aid, or will it?
“I cannot do any better than quote Prime Minister Yatseniuk himself, who said: ‘No reform – no money.’ And that has been a message that the US administration has been consistent with throughout. We understand that these reforms are hard, and that especially in the area of anti-corruption it involves tackling vested interests. Again, look at the PGO: there is a war within the Prosecutor’s Office between those who are trying to build a modern European state and those who are satisfied with the system as it existed under Yanukovych. There should be absolutely no doubt about where the United States comes down in that battle. We are on the side of the reformers, and that was the message that Vice President Biden reiterated in his last call with President Poroshenko.”
We heard Barack Obama’s arguments concerning the US’s rejection of the Keystone pipeline construction project. What would be your advice to the president, given that Russia is using energy as a weapon?
“I will stay away from Keystone, I know that’s a long way from Ukraine, but what’s very clear to me is that we are committed to continuing to work on the task of helping Ukraine to achieve greater energy independence. I was able to spend some time on Thursday with Amos Hochstein, who is the US Special Envoy for these issues at the State Department. Amos has been closely engaged with Minister Demchyshyn and with Mr. Koboliev, helping Ukraine to diversify its energy options. You know, it’s important that the United States is now becoming a gas exporter, and every molecule of gas that we are able to bring to global markets, especially every molecule of gas we bring to Europe, helps to reduce the influence that Gazprom is able to exercise over you.”
Mr. Ambassador, I have learned that you recently received the Frasure Award. What does it mean to you?
“Oh, thanks for noticing! You know, in our system it’s a particular honor, because Ambassador Frasure was somebody who worked, gave his life in furtherance of peace in the Balkans, and he was somebody with a very strong reputation for both his intellectual courage and his commitment to using the power of the United States to advance peace and security. So, to the extent, this award acknowledges not just my effort, but frankly the whole embassy-wide effort to help advance peace and security in Ukraine and to help the Ukrainian people to resist the aggression which you have now faced both in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. It’s an enormous honor, but as I said, it’s really an honor for the whole embassy team. And I think all of us who knew Ambassador Frasure were particularly touched by the recognition.”
