Den’s Days in Odesa are in full swing. A lively conversation with the participation of Larysa Ivshyna took place after the opening of our exhibition at the Museum of Literature. The discussion “Odesa: Intellectual Challenges” lasted several hours. Svitlana Bondar, senior teacher at the newly created department of journalism, advertising, and publishing at the Odesa National University, shared that her students read Den on a regular basis. “We call our department ‘the territory of freedom.’ We want our students to be free and teach them to create quality information. That is why Den and books from Den’s Library, book series ‘Armor-Piercing Political Writing’ in particular, are well-known here. So, Den will have followers in Odesa,” Bondar is convinced.
Her words were proven by the students themselves: they do research on Den in their degree papers (in particular, Ivshyna’s publications and the portrait interview genre in the newspaper), and they were also eager to participate in Den’s Summer School of Journalism. Ivshyna was literally bombarded with questions. The subjects varied from the modernization of the national character to the forming of identity to Den’s support of our troops and to favorite books, and the students also wondered whether journalists should go into politics and what effect it might cause. We present the most interesting fragments of the conversations to our readers.
Since the roundtable took place on the anniversary of the Revolution of Dignity, the discussion started with remembering the Maidan events.
Larysa IVSHYNA: “For many years we have been doing a job which I call designing of space with tools not typical for a newspaper. There are several reasons for that. In 1999, the country had a unique chance to elect a president who could have led it to the European Union and NATO. I support this course, this candidate, and along with the newspaper, I did my best for this course to win. Our candidate did not win for various reasons: the administrative resource, unprecedented censorship, and almost complete absence of Internet. In the morning after the election I came to the office and said that now we were going to work with society.
“Now society has shown itself. Recently, a commander of one of the Azov subdivisions said there were people in the battalion who have been subscribed to Den from the very first issue. There were a lot of our readers at Maidan too, but if they had been a majority, Ukraine would be different from what it is now. Maidan is dear for me because different people came out to it, who read The Power of the Soft Sign on the barricades, for example. This means that society is growing and maturing. Unfortunately, this process is rather slow.
“The election of 1999 had far-reaching consequences for the country. The clan-oligarchic model, which was built in Ukraine, has crashed this year in fires and war. This is the fundamental reason for everything that happened, Maidan in particular. But Yanukovych is not the only person to be blamed for it. Effort is needed to replace this model. People who wanted to get rid of Yanukovych came to Maidan. But these people had no clear idea who they wanted to replace him with, and why they wanted it.
“Let us draw a parallel to how Poland behaved in the 1980s. There was a powerful organization system there: trade unions, close ties with the church and among workers, a lot of Poles were reading Gazeta Wyborcza. There were no readers of such kind in Ukraine, they had to be created. Poles did not need to have their history told to them. Every Pole knows who he is from early childhood. And we have to work with society. It is crucially important to reinterpret history and maintain the dialog.”
“WE NEED TO CHANGE THE NATIONAL CHARACTER”
Ksenia BARVINENKO, 3rd year student, department of journalism, advertising, and publishing, Illia Mechnikov Odesa National University:
“Sometimes one gets an impression that Ukrainians have a syndrome of sufferers. Have you noticed that this syndrome started disappearing after the publishing of Den’s Library books began? How are Ukrainians changing, in your opinion?”
L.I.: “Everyone likes to play the victim, it is the easiest way. It is always hard to find the key to self-development. Even though Ukrainian history is full of tragic experiences, a different attitude towards it should be developed. I wrote in a foreword to Ukraine Incognita (12 years ago) that we are lucky to be part of an extremely strong and bright nation. Catastrophes and losses did not break us. We are beautiful in our courage. Our main weakness is that we underestimate intellect, we do not ‘get a kick’ out of expansion of intellectual environment. Thus, a problem of reproduction of state government emerges. We need to change the national character, to hear the world, and be less light-headed. Our people are easily ignited: they do not think and go straight into a fight. We need more rationality and critical thinking. And we need to support each other during hard times.
“I say that the basis of the national security is when Ukrainian women like Ukrainian men. Now we all are fascinated with Ukrainian soldiers. The bravery of our troops impresses NATO generals! This is the beginning of transition from crisis and suffering to self-respect and therefore, to normal life. In the 20th century Ukrainians lived in the paradigm of hunger and its complicated consequences, the society was paralyzed by fear. The Revolution of Dignity is valuable, because a young generation has appeared, which shattered this paradigm. Yes, we have complicated consequences, but the men who appeared on the forefront of Ukraine’s history are unique, the first Maidan saw nothing of this kind. This does not solve all our problems, but gives the grounds for well-deserved pride for contemporary Ukrainians, and not only Cossacks.
“We have been living in a ‘tin can’ for a long time, we did not know who we were. Now our society can be based on the new attitude towards each other and towards the country. We do not need to convince everyone today that the Ukrainian flag is sacred and the Ukrainian army is an object of pride. These things are normal for all countries, and they were not developed in ours. It is an exciting task, to rise from the waterline level and build a new country. And our youth has a unique chance to build a new state on a turnkey basis.”
A question from the audience: “The Western civilization is depleting itself, the East has its own problems. How can Ukraine change priorities from material to spiritual ones? What path should it choose?”
L.I.: “Now something deeply hidden started speaking in Ukraine. Our mentality manifestation is absolutely different from our neighbors’. Some people do not have a necessary educational background, but they are looking for answers to important questions. Our men are standing at checkpoints with Den’s issues. It is no easy reading, but soldiers want to know and understand what is going on, that is why there is demand for our articles. And the message we receive, from our troops in particular, is that we have to live differently and we have no right to live the way we lived before.
“We have to connect to our history. Russia saw that our history was not looked after, we forgot about it, and it decided to take advantage of that. But history is our passport in the world. There was the magnificent Kyiv Rus’, and Russia decided to claim it, and ‘dissolve’ Ukraine. Russia wants to impose its malign vision on us. As if we do not have ability for nation-building and need external control. So, history itself forces us to study it.
“James Mace once showed all the risks of our position: what post-genocidal society is, how it can be cured, and what can happen when this process takes too long. Unfortunately, these topics did not find extensive support among journalists. We wasted time. And we have a very cunning neighbor nearby. We must understand this and arm ourselves with knowledge, otherwise we are doomed. We are becoming more and more democratic, but we are doing worse and worse. There is no other option but take responsibility for our more than millennial history.
“A nation grows from overcoming humiliation and understanding dignity.”
Student of journalism, advertising, and publishing department at Illia Mechnikov Odesa National University:
“Before, the idea of independence was important in Ukraine, now the main task is to preserve sovereignty. What should our guiding idea on the path towards Europe be like today? What should Ukraine’s geopolitical course be like?
L.I.: “Let us estimate our forces and the options we can use them for. The prospects are wonderful: we are a rich country, living like Switzerland, not joining any blocs. This seems to be hardly likely. What is Ukraine’s situation in reality? Security issues were treated carelessly, it was assumed that we have a brotherly nation across the border. Only old camp prisoners said that there is no other more vicious enemy than this nation. If Ukraine were a NATO member, we would be shielded by Article 5 of its Charter, which guarantees protection against any form of aggression against a NATO member.
“Luhansk and Donetsk despised Ukraine, the policy that was carried out there was aimed at the isolation of ordinary people, and it turned into a new genocide there. I have been trying to establish a contact with the Donetsk National University for many years. Not long before the current events, we were in Donetsk, made a huge photo exhibit there. People started thinking about something there, finally seeing things. But… So, first of all, we must settle the defense issues. And when it comes to the European Union and NATO, I think of NATO as the primary partner.
“We need to work on ourselves in everyday life, service, healthcare, but security comes first. We hardly can succeed at being strong and getting by purely on our own. A realistic option for us is to take care of security and be a NATO member. European integration is useful and necessary for the country. But we prepared to join Europe which is run according to different rules from those that we imagined. We failed to integrate into the European Union as fast as Poland did. I remember the last Congress of the People’s Deputies of the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union was falling to pieces, all deputies from the Baltic States were standing in the doorway, suitcase in hand, figuratively speaking. They were present only when decisions related to estrangement from the USSR were made. And then they instantly turned towards the European Union. Our politicians stood and gaped, pondered who we should join. We were late, and history punished us. We need to draw the right conclusions.
“Golda Meir said once: ‘Our enemies want to see us dead, whereas we want to live. This contradiction leaves little room for compromise.’ It is important that we have the strength to live, that we choose a correct formula of joining the ‘intelligent world’ and are ready for this joining.”
“PEOPLE SHOULD BE UNITED THROUGH VALUES”
Dmytro ZHURAVEL, 2nd year student, department of journalism, advertising, and publishing, Illia Mechnikov Odesa National University:
“How hard it is for journalists to be unbiased today, when war is going on in the country? Is it easy to manage Den today?”
L.I.: “The question is whether journalists are ready for what is going on today, whether they realize what the standard is. Russia has lowered the standards and objectiveness bar very much. Ukrainians say that propaganda is unnecessary and only truth is needed. But is propaganda against propaganda needed? What about propaganda of the truth? Yes. We have a fantastic photo of a young soldier Artur Stepanenko, which is called Callsign Sokil. Our old friend Tetiana Yurkova purchased it at the auction and gave it to Artur’s school. This is how senses are formed, we have accomplished that.
“People should be united through values. A framework of understanding, which is important for us, must be created. A multitude of senses for the country have to be developed, but a system, a well-ordered mechanism is required for that. Values must be promoted in media. So far, this is absent from both legislation and practice.
“Today, during the war, we turn on various TV channels and do not see that there is a war in the country. We have a not-really-a-war, I don’t understand it. The absence of values and clear criteria in journalism do not allow talking about the general objectivity. A productive field must be created, so everyone could choose important principles for themselves.”
Viktoria, student of journalism, advertising, and publishing department, Illia Mechnikov Odesa National University:
“You said that readers must be educated in Ukraine, who could fully consume the necessary information. Does the state of readers influence the newspaper, or does the newspaper shape readers?
L.I.: “Historian Massimo d’Azeglio said, when all Italian lands were uniting: ‘We created Italy, now we must create Italians.’ We had to create our own audience. We had to choose an environment of the highest quality out of those remaining after the Soviet Union, unite, and then multiply the territory.
“Take a look at our glossy supplement Route No. 1, for example. We created issues dedicated to various cities: Odesa, Mykolaiv. This high-quality glossy magazine is required to grow and mix the environment. Are there quality Ukrainian glossy magazines in our hair salons, cafes, offices? These two notions are not even associated together. Only Russian glossy magazines with their ‘brands and trends’ are everywhere.
“At the same time, large international projects realized how to attract intellectual readers: for example, they publish articles about expensive books. This is done, because environments must be mixed. In Ukraine, influential people are often not acquainted with Ukrainian classics, they do not know Ukrainian history. And this mixing of various environments must reach its maximum effectiveness. Contexts must be built, so that people who never read Ukrainian authors start growing interest in them.
“Den’s work slogan is: ‘A newspaper for a country which does not yet exist.’ This corresponds to our task: to design space. We find our readers, multiply our territory, because the meeting point is determined not by political views, but by common values. And our young readers are growing up, who strive to live in a country which values intelligent, spiritual, educated, tolerant people the most. We respect all our readers, they are residents of remote villages and largest cities, people of various age or wealth, united by certain principles. We tried to give a projection which could work at the right time. Everything has grown and is ready for serial distribution at our lot. Now we need ‘salespeople,’ ‘translators’ of our ideas to languages of various communities: businesses, universities, etc., so people would understand why it is important to know this. There are those who started reading us with our glossy magazine. If we had waited until the reader was given to us, we would still be waiting.”
