We invited Andrii BONDAR, a well-known poet, essayist, and translator, who was born, graduated from school and university, and debuted as man of letters in Kamianets, to speak on this city.
You may be said to have blood and family ties with Kamianets. What is the history of your relationship?
“My relationship with Kamianets have never been simple. The history of escapes and comebacks, love and hate for it, can well be given a Freudian interpretation. Now that I have an opportunity to look at this relationship with a sober eye, I can see that this city has always been a deep complex of mine. Kamianets is for me like a father whom you adore in childhood, hate in the teen years, keep clear of in your youth, and tenderly love in adult age. Only now that I can see it at a distance, I can say that our relationship is calmer, as is the case with an old couple who have been divorced for 14 years but are still visiting each other for a cup of tea. For all too clear reasons, I don’t know and can’t understand why this city is viewed as a tourist attraction. Nor do I approve of the naive Kamianets patriotism. I have always known that there are other, by no means inferior, cities. I am grateful to fate that I could leave that place, but I would still like to reserve the lifelong right to return there. Kamianets is what I cannot get rid of by definition. I see this city in my dreams.”
What was the first childhood recollection of the city?
“Kamianets is, above all, various sentiments expressed in stone. The first bright recollection is the statue of Stone Mother (as I used to call her) in the municipal park. Together with Kotyhoroshko, it was my first mythological hero.”
And what was it in reality?
“A full-bosomed socialist-realism mother with a baby in her arms.”
And is there an indelible recollection which comes up once you hear the city mentioned?
“It is undoubtedly the Kamianets canyon. I still consider it one of the city’s greatest wonders.”
Could you tell me more in detail about it?
“Deep in my mind, the canyon is sort of a borderline between the two worlds: one in which there is real everyday life and a mythological, historical, old-town space, where everything can happen, where there is so much history that always seemed mysterious and semi-fabulous to me. For me, it never had a specific shape, and I had treated it as a fairy-tale since I was a child. The canyon is a majestic recollection of the past of the Smotrych, a river that resembles in a way the Styx which separates day from night, dream from reality, and life from death. It is there that one can imagine the now modest Smotrych as wide and full of water, as it used to be. The Kamianets canyon is an excellent place for suicides. Committing a suicide, Kamianets style, is falling off a cliff or a bridge. A man is just unable to resist mystery. I have often heard the phrase ‘went off a cliff.’ It is also impossible to resist the canyon on May days, when all this mad park greenery runs riot.”
Let us go from the past to this day: what changed do you see when you visit the place now? Which of the Kamianetses - childhood-time or present-day - do you like better?
“Most of my childhood-time Kamianets has moved to Nihyn Highway. There is a city cemetery there with the graves of those I did and still do love. I have much more acquaintances there than among the living Kamianets residents. The first devastation of the childhood-time Kamianets occurred at the turn of the 1990s, during Jewish emigration. Jewish friends made a very important part of my world. What happened to the city in the 90s was in principle typical of the entire country: the realm of commercial spirit, European-style house renovation, plastic-and-glass balcony glazing, and the never-ending struggle for survival. I am very little interested in the present-day Kamianets. I have almost nobody to phone and speak to, apart from my parents. Yet I would like very much to love it.”
But I think you still remember your favorite places and itineraries in the city.
“I like the Rus Gate, the Stefan Batory Tower, the St. Peter and Paul Church, the St. Josaphat Church (former Dominican Roman Catholic Cathedral). I am awfully fond of strolling on the Old Fortress outskirts. You can walk there in two ways: across the pond, a park, the old bridge and the entire old town, then go down near the Turkish Bridge and walk along the causeway to the Elevation of the Holy Cross Church. You can go back through the lower part of the city - past the Rus Gate and the former prison (and tobacco factory), go up the stairs to the Rus Granaries and the Holy Virgin’s Intercession Church, and walk through the botanical botanic garden. There are wonderful parks in the new-look Kamianets. It is always a sentimental and pleasant walk. It is also a good opportunity to show my friends, who sometimes accompany me, as much Kamianets as possible in a short time.”
Then we can try to stroll at least verbally. What the city landscape like?
“The city is divided into the new and the old parts. The new part is the same as in any other district center, although the old town emerges from the new one and the landscape’s most striking feature is the Smotrych Canyon which makes an island out of the old part and divides the city in two.”
There were a lot of cultures and peoples in this city. Whose influence is felt the most?
“Unfortunately, you mostly feel the impact of the Soviet era and the 1990s - first of all, in the behavior and cultural attitudes of people, in the latest architectural styles. But if you take a broader historical perspective, then, obviously, Kamianets is a city permeated with the spirit of what used to be the Polish Kingdom. All the best things were built before the end of the 18th century. It is, first of all, Catholic architecture. It is people like Potocki and Lanckoronski, whom Soviet historiography branded as exploiters and Ukraine-eaters, who in fact created the inimitable ‘genius of place’ for Kamianets.”
A bit more of history. Kamianets is known to have been a true capital several times - of a principality, a region, and even the UNR in 1921. What imprint did this leave on the city and does it still remember in some way that it used to be a capital?
“Oh no, very few are thinking today about Kamianets having been a capital, and the majority do not even know this. What is left of Petliura’s capital is the otaman’s headquarters and the former Palace of Pioneers (one of the most interesting structures in the new town). As for the era of principalities, it is legends and breathtaking stories that remind us of it. Many Kamianets residents still harbor a childish grudge against Khrushchev who moved the regional capital from Kamianets to Khmelnytsky. This loss of the status of regional capital so far causes more pain than a similar loss in the UNR or principality era.”
Speaking of the city dwellers, is there a ‘typical Kamianets resident’?
“One can draw sort of a semi-comical portrait of a typical Kamianets resident. It is a person who believes that there is a golden carriage dug somewhere in, that Karmaliuk is still alive, chained in a tower that is called after him, that Kamianetsd was founded by the ancient Romans, and that few decades later, still in their lifetime, Khmelnytsky will be robbed of the oblast center status - in favor of Kamianets, naturally. But, joking apart, the most typical Kamianets residents are elderly parishioners of the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral and the old Jews living the last stretch of their lifetime under the sun of Palestine.”
And were there any famous local madmen?
“Sure. Like in any normal city. There were lots of them in my childhood, and I knew them all by sight. I am afraid the present-day city types are the same as in Okhtyrka or Yasynuvata. But, to tell the truth, we have a unique type: a bomb-disposal cadet from the Military Engineering College. This is Ukraine’s only war college of this kind. So it is not so easy to blow Kamianates up.”
This may be considered part of the city mythology. But, seriously, does Kamianets have long-established myths of its own?
“There are lots of myths: from the myth of foundation to the funeral of the first local mafia godfather’s funeral. And each of them must have quite ample grounds. But, in the course of time, they are grown over with endless rumors, twists and distortions. After all, it is a typical situation for every city myth.”
What still gladdens and enchants you in this city?
“It gladdens me that there still are wonderful people there, who are gathering this city bit by bit. Among them are my good friends Oleh Budzei and Iryna Pustynnykova. It gladdens me that this is a birthplace of true talents, such as, for example, the photographer Dmytro Yarovyi and the musician Pavlo Nechytailo from the Propala Hramota group.”
And what do you resent?
The city’s greatest problem is that most of its residents should reside elsewhere. I resent incongruity between the city and the people.”
Then what is Kamianets best fit for? Recreation, employment, tourism, ‘to see and die’?
“Kamianets is a nice venue for historical games and festivals. For instance, it hosts an annual Terra Heroica, when sweet oddballs come around, put on a military uniform, and stage battles. The city becomes motley and multicolored for a few days. And you just with it would be always like this.”
This means the status of a museum city, doesn’t it?
“A museum city sounds a bit dull. Yet it is better a museum city than a bazaar city. I think Kamianets will combine several functions in the future. I really wish it would be, above all, a city which you don’t want to leave.”
And to what extent free is this city?
“Kamianets has always been young. If you can regard youth as a synonym to freedom, then, undoubtedly, Kamianets is free.”
Even the youngest city has a grain of mysticism. And what about Kamianets? Has it ever been in this kind of situations?
“There was very much strange and bewitched in the childhood-time Kamianets. For example, the Stone Mother whom I was afraid to look in the eyes. And then our cliffs and bridges from which hundreds of people have been falling over the centuries because they must have failed to disclose all its secrets. And what about the famous arch under which Leonid Kuchma once swore to become president and, as history proves, he did become one.”
In general, what is the secret of Kamianets?
“Kamianets is just a mystery from beginning to end. First of all, its synonym is a ‘flower on a stone.’ For it is common knowledge that flowers won’t grow on a stone. This is its first secret.”
And, finally, some metaphors. Who or what would you compare Kamianets with?
“I would sound banal if I said it resembles a stone. I would be still more banal to say that it reminds me of a flower on a stone. But, undoubtedly, Kamianets is a Gothic novel.”
Is it? Why on earth Gothic?
“Because this stone has not yet been filled with literary mysteries, although it has a potential for some. All kinds of fears, mystical legends, medieval torture chambers, hapless lovers... There is so much suitable material just beneath our feet, but nobody has written even one good novel about Kamianets.”
Well, are there so many horrors in this novel?
“I believe Kamianets horrors would suffice if not for a Nobel Prize then surely for an entire subculture...”
