Despite everything, Saakashvili has managed to convince himself and his team that their journey home begins in Ukraine. Like, they will be finally fully appreciated if they manage to implement here what they did at home. This is why he is now talking to Ukrainian officials so much, meeting with President Petro Poroshenko, motivating and promoting reforms.
The main “secret” of Saakashvili’s success was likely his ability to quickly and responsibly make decisions in the public interest, which he could do as he was a child of the 1990s, unlike the first generation of post-Soviet politicians. Can President Poroshenko and all our political leadership follow his example? This exclusive interview with The Day contains former Georgian president and participant of both Ukrainian Maidans’ answer to this question.
What is the purpose of your ongoing visit to Ukraine?
“I came here at the invitation of the Presidential Administration. I had many meetings with Poroshenko himself. We discussed the issue of my employment in Ukraine, the participation of our experts in Ukrainian reforms... I met with Ukrainian ministers as well...
“I come to Ukraine often enough as it is. Physically, I live in New York, but my heart and mind are here because I would very much like to help.”
What position is Poroshenko offering you?
“I was offered the post of first deputy prime minister of Ukraine, but to get it, I needed to take Ukrainian citizenship and renounce the Georgian one. I refused to do it. At this point, I just cannot do it. Still, I offered to bring our Georgian experts to Ukraine. Three of them have already agreed to become citizens of Ukraine and help in implementing reforms. It is not the end of the matter, though, for I am sure many more my compatriots will join this team. I strongly encourage Georgian specialists not only to take Ukrainian citizenship, but also to become as loyal to Ukraine as they are to Georgia.”
What are your plans regarding Ukraine?
“I would like to organize all our people to enable them to integrate into the Ukrainian structures, and that is what I am now actively engaged in.”
Do you have the impression that the Ukrainian government does not know what to do with their own country, so they are looking for help around the world. Assuming that the 21st century Earth is a kind of global village, it is justified. However, we focus on another matter – what does this helplessness signify?
“First, it is an international practice. We did almost the same thing when we invited the French ambassador in Georgia to become our foreign minister. Of course, she was ethnically Georgian, but born in France and lived there for almost all of her life. Kakha Bendukidze, when we invited him to our government, was a Russian citizen and had no links to Georgia. I personally had a few very close advisors, totally foreign people, who were involved in decision-making.
Photo from Mikheil SAAKASHVILI’s Facebook page
“When creating a new country, these methods are very important. After all, US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General John Shalikashvili was ethnic Georgian [his full name was John Malchase David Shalikashvili, he was a US general of Polish and Georgian ancestry, 10th Supreme Allied Commander Europe (1992-93), 13th Chairman of the JCS (1993-97), commander of the 9th infantry division. – Author], while US Minister of Environment Valdas Adamkus was ethnic Lithuanian [Adamkus was Midwest Regional Administrator for the Environmental Protection Agency (1981-97). – Author] and later became president of Lithuania. That is, even a country as successful as the US is had first-generation immigrants occupying high offices.”
We are discussing a slightly different matter here. Ukrainian authorities are specifically looking for people from outside Ukraine. Why? It is an indictment? Who or what is indicted? Is it the political, social, educational system, under which we lived so far?
“Ukraine was robbed for 20 years. This is an extremely rich country with huge potential, but it has had a malignant circle of clan ties emerging over these 20 years, which should now be broken. All means are good for this purpose. But first of all, it is Ukrainian officials who have to make the reforms happen. I believe that lifting Ukraine from its current predicament is Ukrainians’ own job. I think that Ukrainians agree that they need new people in power, and those who support it would not object much to foreigners in high places either. I have noticed also that those who resent foreign ministers are in fact against any new people in power...”
However, it may be that they are outraged over the authorities’ stated reasons of bringing these new people to power! Do you agree that there is a certain degree of spin to their statements that we need foreigners, because they have no prior ties to Ukraine, and therefore cannot be corrupted? Both, me and you, understand well that in today’s globalized world, people can have relationships and debts to pay at any distance. It is easy to hide, preventing both, us journalists and regular citizens, even more so, from immediately understanding who has obligations to whom. For example, there is a good Polish president Aleksander Kwasniewski, who has done much good for the country, but his usefulness for the Ukrainian reforms is questionable, especially if it means combating oligarchy, given his public guarantees of immunity for Leonid Kuchma and friendship with the ex-president’s son-in-law Viktor Pinchuk. Any foreigner in the Ukrainian government needs supervision from strong national elite. Otherwise, there are risks. So, when we heard people talking about appointing you, or some other foreigner as chairman of the Anti-Corruption Investigation Bureau, The Day took an issue with it... We have no beef with you personally, but we do have with our elite and its understanding of the challenges facing the nation.
“As for me, I am a nominal foreigner only. I have lived for seven years in Ukraine. I have served in the frontier troops. I have guarded the Ukrainian border for two years. I have studied in a well-known and respected higher educational institution in Ukraine. I have an experience of communicating with different Ukrainians, both in the cities, and in the villages. After all, I have taken an active part in all Ukrainian revolutions. That is why if anyone dares call me a foreigner, this will be on their conscience. In my opinion, most of Ukrainians don’t think so. I have done a lot to prove that I am part of your cultural project.
“There will be no progress, if you don’t combat corruption. Neither a reformer minister, nor a president, no matter how great his political will is, will be able to implement any serious changes unless they fight corruption.
“For 20 years money has been pumped out of Ukraine through the renting of the state property, the overblown state sector. You are facing another threat now. Mass privatization in Ukraine has already become inevitable. There is plenty of state property to be sold.
“If it isn’t sold, you will face an economic crisis. If you sell it improperly, there will be a catastrophe. We witnessed the same thing in the early 1990s after the collapse of the USSR. Silvio Berlusconi did the same thing back when he and his government practically became co-owners of Italy and had the country stuck in the past for a long time... Ukraine is now facing the threat of dishonest privatization. If the state property is not sold transparently and the oligarchs have an influence on the government, or any of the ministers, goes for the temptation to become an oligarch, the Ukrainian statehood will collapse. Therefore it is very important to create a very efficient body of fighting the corruption in the higher echelons of power at this stage. It is high time to clean the country from the clan corruption influences to prevent things that I have mentioned in the future.
“At the moment you have no safety devices against dishonest privatization, except for the political will of the president and several reformer ministers. But this won’t be enough unless legal mechanisms are created.”
