Bohdan Hawrylyshyn, a world-famous Ukrainian-born economist, public activist and sponsor, member of the “December 1” pressure group, is always a welcome guest at The Day’s editorial office. He is called an incurable optimist and dreamer. Yet Mr. Hawrylyshyn is not seeking easy ways, nor does he believe in fast-track recipes for revitalizing the economy. He does not cherish too many “November hopes” for the association agreement with the EU. His forecast for the next ten years is not very optimistic, either. Nevertheless, Mr. Hawrylyshyn visited The Day with his unchangeable radiant smile, zest in his eyes, and a global project. Still doubting the ability of the current government and opposition to bring the state up to the European level, he is pinning, as before, high hopes on the younger generation and preparing it for an “attack” on the Verkhovna Rada. We will be also able to see the way these plans are carried out on The Day’s pages.
Mr. Hawrylyshyn, your project Youth Changes Ukraine has already started. Please, tell us about it and its first results.
“To begin with, Ukraine has a phenomenal potential, first of all, in the energy sector, which can free us from the Russian gas captivity. Secondly, it is a colossal human capital. I can draw comparisons with other countries, and I can say there are very many talented and educated people among the Ukrainians.
“Those now in power and in opposition are unable to qualitatively change this country. It is up to youth to do so. My information says that 50 percent of young people would like to leave Ukraine, but I also know that if not 50 than 30 remaining percent have already decided to stay behind and do something for their native land. This is quite a large number. But they do not know how to do this and do not believe that they can change anything. Therefore, they need certain guidelines.
“The project Youth Changes Ukraine calls for the formation of groups consisting of 5 to 7 people who have knowledge and interest in various fields. They should include experts in law, the economy, sociology, political science, ecology, etc. Each of these groups will study several countries that meet what I consider four basic criteria: complete political freedom, a certain level of economic wellbeing among the entire population, social justice, and a symbiosis with nature, in contrast to exploitation, ruination, and pollution. There are very few states like this and still fewer the ones we can learn something from. I think it is Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Germany, and Poland. I chose the latter because their experience of ‘shock therapy’ and transformation of thoughts and ideas (suffice it to recall the Solidarity movement) are of great value for us. Besides, Poland is taking a very positive attitude to Ukraine and is helping us as much as it can. About 10,000 Ukrainian students currently study there.
“So the groups study the system and experience of the abovementioned countries from all the possible sources, such as the Internet, those countries’ embassies, etc. Then the young people travel to those countries for 7 to 10 days. Larysa Ivshyna said recently – quite to the point – that we should make use of all the available channels of communication, including Twitter and Facebook, but we must not forget personal communication. Indeed, to understand a country, you should not only know very much about it, but also feel it. For this reason, program participants live in those countries and see which of the factors that made the countries effective could be applied in our state at present.
“One group has already come back from Austria and is analyzing its impressions. The next stage is another trip, when they will visit city and village councils, and other administrative bodies. They do advanced studies there for about a year. It is important that all this is done in groups. For I do not think we should train leaders, although this is quite a common practice now. One should emerge as leader. Conversely, we have very many leaders, which results in the problem of ‘I’m the boss down here.’”
But still, how will this look in practice? For bureaucrats, who, in spite of everything, are clinging to their offices, will hardly cede their cushy to your “school’s” pupils…
“The people who will study as part of these groups will go to parliament in a critical mass. They will form a broad-based party or several parties. This is quite realistic if we recall what happened in March 1990. Twenty-five something MPs used to be political prisoners. They are writers and poets, i.e., dreamers. They were not idealists, not realists. And they had a clear vision of independent Ukraine.”
How long has the Youth Changes Ukraine project been in action and how many people does it involve now? How do you select participants and form groups?
“We began to form groups six months ago. Some of them are already working, and one has even finished the first cycle. So we sowed the seeds.
“To make the groups being formed effective, it is important to apply special ‘chemistry’ to them. We may be choosing the best people, but it remains to be seen if they will cooperate with each other. So it will be better if all this is done somewhat spontaneously.
The European Union has imposed a number of conditions on Ukraine, which should be fulfilled before May. If they are met, the International Monetary Fund will, in theory, give this country more loans and grounds to be more optimistic. However, I do not think Ukraine will be able to do so. So I strongly doubt that the Association Agreement will be signed. It is obvious now that Europe wants this treaty, for it is aware of Ukraine’s importance. Yet it cannot do this unless Ukraine meets its commitments, including those about political prisoners. But, in general, it is difficult for me to make such short-term forecasts. It is easier to say what will occur 10 years later.
“Whenever I meet students, I don’t teach them how to behave properly in certain situations – I only tell them about ten lessons from my own life. They are in my book I Remain Ukrainian. The first lesson of life is: we receive more satisfaction from the very fact of giving something. We should not just consume or keep something for ourselves. I know, not just believe, that every individual, who will really allow themselves to dream wildly and then focus on the ways of realizing this dream, can do almost everything. And if they don’t know how to do this, they will learn it.”
We would also like to hear your opinion about the current topical issues in this country. What is your forecast of the November Ukraine-EU summit? Can the Association Agreement be signed in the fall? And is it worthwhile to sign it in the current situation?
“The European Union has imposed a number of conditions on Ukraine, which should be fulfilled before May. If they are met, the International Monetary Fund will, in theory, give this country more loans and grounds to be more optimistic. However, I do not think Ukraine will be able to do so. So I strongly doubt that the Association Agreement will be signed. It is obvious now that Europe wants this treaty, for it is aware of Ukraine’s importance. Yet it cannot do this unless Ukraine meets its commitments, including those about political prisoners. But, in general, it is difficult for me to make such short-term forecasts. It is easier to say what will occur 10 years later.”
OK, do you think Ukraine will become a full-fledged EU member in 10 years’ time?
“No, we will not join the EU even in 10 years’ time. But what is more important for me is not so much Ukraine’s EU membership as its reputation as a country worthy of the European Union. We must go down the difficult road of transformation. Then we would think twice whether it is worth joining the EU. Naturally, NATO membership would be advisable from the viewpoint of external security. But the EU itself is now in a serious crisis. I would not advise Ukraine to join the EU first of all because they have a weak system of governance. The most important decisions must be made unanimously by all the 27 member states’ foreign ministers. Europe has enough problems of its own. They need to shape a really common foreign policy. Very many people in the EU feel they are too far from Brussels. They do not feel themselves true members of the association, for they know that bureaucrats are making all decisions without them. It is much more important for Ukraine to meet the so-called ‘Copenhagen criteria.’ This is really important.”
Do you think there is really the danger of applying a Magnitsky List analogue to Ukrainian officials?
“We should not, so far, expect any sanctions from the EU or the US. The situation is that the EU shares the view that Ukraine should be part of the united Europe. At the same time, they cannot shut their eyes to actual problems. There is a sufficient number of factors that may prompt the imposition of sanctions, as was the case with Belarus. But EU leaders want to continue the dialogue with Ukraine.”
The opposition has declared a “people’s uprising.” Do you think the opposition ought to take a constructive position and help the party in power?
“Naturally, there are good politicians and skilled experts in both camps, but there is no constructive relationship between them. There are some draft resolutions that should be passed, not speculated upon. If this opposition cared about this country’s future rather than about their higher ratings, it would be not only criticizing the government’s performance (if the government is really doing something bad), but also suggesting some alternative ways of solving problems. Yet it is mindless to give the MPs some advice. They heed nobody and ignore our recommendations. The problem is that I can see no really ideological parties with concrete action plans either in both the government’s and the opposition’s camps. Instead, there are only election programs or, in other words, empty promises. Therefore, there are complaints about the government, but there is no benefit from the opposition, either.”
Russiahas intensified its propagandistic attacks against Ukraine lately. For example, Russian state-run TV channels are advising Ukraine to stay clear of the EU and call Taras Shevchenko a “second-rate” poet with “fascist” views. How should Ukraine respond to this?
“This is an inadmissible neighborhood policy. Russia is not hiding its ambitions to subdue Ukraine. It dreams in fact to see Ukraine in the future as one of its gubernias. This plan was conceived back in the 1990s. When some people understood that the USSR would collapse, they began to think over how to grab Ukraine as fast as possible. Russia behaves especially brazenly today, openly calling Ukrainians stupid Little Russians. Unfortunately, many people in Ukraine are taking an indifferent attitude to being referred to as ‘second-rate’ people. Once, in Romania, I came across some people who were speaking a Slavic language. I came up to them and asked: ‘Where are you from?’ They answered: ‘We are khokhly.’ ‘You are right,” I said, ‘You are true khokhly.’ Regretfully, there are a lot of khokhly like these in here, so the Russians can afford to speak to us in this manner. Incidentally, these khokhly allow having a prime minister who does not know the official language. I have never seen this in any country of the world.
“Unfortunately, there are also very few things Ukrainian on the 1st National TV Channel. You won’t hear any national ideas at the Shuster-type political circuses. Ukraine itself is to blame. Of course, we are not provoking this on purpose. But we tacitly allow this done. It is the job of journalists to teach Ukrainians to respect themselves.
“I have met 10,000 students in the past four years during all kinds of forums, discussions and debate. Do you know what a fantastic potential of the country it is? So the situation is not too hopeless. All they need is inspiration.
“When I was 16, I was eager to study psychology to be able to analyze and cognize myself. I was a talented enough and bright pupil, but I was also aware of having some weak points. I therefore understood that I could study myself for all my lifetime… But it is better to cognize the surrounding world. I refocused on my, so to speak, trump cards and began to build up on them. It would be worthwhile to teach society in the same vein, but it is totally disillusioned now. The mass media must stop distorting the reality.”
