Dr. Clarence Jones, a speechwriter, counsel, and close friend of Martin Luther King, Jr. has recently been on a visit to Kyiv. Within the framework of the US Ambassador’s Forum he delivered a lecture on Commemorating the 50th Anniversary of Dr. King’s “Dream” – Why Black History Month in the United States?” at the Diplomatic Academy of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Kyiv Mohyla Academy.
Dr. Jones has closely cooperated with Martin Luther King, Jr. and helped him write the famous “I Have a Dream” speech, which King delivered on August 28, 1963, during the peaceful rally “March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.” Throughout his activity of fighting for civil rights Mr. Jones has cardinally impacted the course of the American history. For example, in April 1963 he helped conclude an agreement between the City of Birmingham and King to bring about the end of demonstrations and the desegregation of department stores and public accommodations. In September 1971 he again found himself in the epicenter of historical events, when at the request of Governor Nelson Rockefeller helped him in negotiations concerning the historic Attica prison riot. Clarence Jones has also made a successful career in investment banking and was the first Afro-American on the Wall Street. He has founded successful financial, corporate, and media-related enterprises. Dr. Jones is also a co-author of the book What Would Martin Say, published in 2008, Behind the Dream: The Making of the Speech that Transformed a Nation, 2011, and a Kindle edition Uprising: Understanding Attica, Revolution, and the Incarceration State. He is currently co-writing a book Where Were You? dedicated to the 50th anniversary of President John Kennedy’s murder. Dr. Jones is a regular contributor to Huffington Post newspaper. He is also writing his autobiography Memoirs of a Winter Time Soldier.
In spite of his tight schedule, Clarence Jones kindly agreed to give an exclusive interview to The Day, and we are grateful to him for that.
Did you believe in those times, 40 years ago, that the civil right movement would succeed?
“Yes, I did. Was my belief based on a certainty? Not an absolute certainty, but on a great hope and probability. And my belief was based on two things. One was the correctness of Dr. King’s leadership, his commitment and non-violence civil disobedience as the form of opposing racial segregation. And two, it was my prophetic belief as he believed in the inherent decency and fairness of the American people, particularly American white people. Remember. We could not have achieved any fundamental change on the issue of racial segregation of America, unless 88 percent of the population, white, was willing to share and to agree that 4 percent of population, black, should be treated fairly and so it was a combination. My belief was based on the efficacy and soundness of his leadership, and then on the innate core decency and fairness of the average American white person living in the same country under the same principles of the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution that everyone else did. And I believed that.”
So, you believed that unless Martin Luther King, Jr., the cause would not have succeed? Would it have succeed without him?
“Without him there was always the possibility of another leader emerging. There were several other leaders at the time. But only his unwavering, unconditional, unqualified commitment to oppose racial injustice non-violently for the use of mass demonstrations of people… There were other leaders, but he was the only one. So the question you might want to ask, if there was no Dr. King, I think there may have emerged another leader. But unless that leader was similarly committed to the same kind of strategy and tactics as Dr. King, he’s unlikely to have succeeded.”
At the lecture you mentioned that King Jr. believed in Jesus Christ and was a follower of the philosophy of Gandhi. What was the impulse for him to get to India and become acquainted with this philosophy, etc.? How did it happen?
“I don’t recall any factual information. I can’t tell you the process, but I can tell you the result. I can tell you the part of the process. He was a very erudite, knowledgeable person. I cannot accurately recall and tell you when he first started studying the philosophy of Gandhi. I can tell you that in 1959, I believe, was the first time he visited India. And as a result of visiting India and learning more about the philosophy of Mahatma Gandhi that only reaffirmed his belief in the potential applicability, the potential use of the technique of non-violence to bring about fundamental change in racial injustice in America.”
You also mentioned that the job remains unfinished for Americans. Freedom is not enough, one should have a home or a roof above his head. But the Chinese philosophy is vice versa. The Chinese say that people’s freedom consists of people having roof and food. Could you please comment on this?
“I understand what you are saying. I would concede and so would Dr. King. I don’t want you to believe that Dr. King was saying: freedom to have something. Remember freedom, he fundamentally was talking about the time, the freedom to be treated equally before the law. Our complaint was that people of color were treated differently before and under the law than the white people. So, he recognized the freedom to go and stay in a hotel or a restaurant absence of being stigmatized because of the color of your skin. He recognized that this freedom is meaningless without food, without economic means. Or to put it more bluntly, there’s no sense having the freedom to go to any restaurant or to stay in any hotel if you don’t have the money to pay for it. So, I do not want in any way to diminish, I don’t want the perception to believe that this freedom, equal opportunity was more important than anything else. No. It was part of the total freedom – realizing what it means to a fully empowered citizen in the United States.”
By the way, you deliver numerous lectures to American students. Do young people in America know the legacy of Martin Luther King, its importance? Because you mentioned that this should be taught across the country.
“Many of them do not know the legacy. And that’s sad. But most of them know about the ‘I have a Dream’ speech. But many of them don’t know the struggle out of which this speech came. During this year, as we commemorated the 50th anniversary of the speech, more and more people, more and more students are going to be taking the time and studying the legacy of Dr. King. I think this year of 2013 there’s going to be such a rededication of attention that most of young people, even young people who did not know much about, will come to understand it.”
Including the Orange Revolution. But as I said earlier, many revolutions have a phase of development that they go through. Their success and durability depend upon the extent in which they can keep the broad-based coalition of support, including support from the security forces in the country. And the other thing is that the revolutions can be protected and prevented from being dissipated or stained by the absence of personal integrity in the leadership. Charges of corruption, charges of the absence of personal integrity can disenchant, can cause people to become very cynical. This is in the United States, so it cannot be in Egypt. All movements, by the way. I consider the greatest threat to movements what I call agent provocateur syndrome, that third party group that tries to attach itself to the movement that has its own agenda and only uses the movement as a vehicle to achieve its own agenda, most of which is inconsistent. And many of those agendas can aggravate the opposition to oppose the movement, but more important is that they diminish the opportunity for other parts of the population to join the coalition because they looked at it as some crazy thing.
In your opinion, why is it important that this legacy or this speech should be known in the world?
“Well, as I said earlier, the actual content and words of the ‘I have a Dream’ speech was not the most profound document or statement that Dr. King made. I would recommend as a template for future generations to really understand what happened at the time of the ‘I have a Dream’ speech and later in America, they should read his letter from the Birmingham jail, which he wrote over a course of three or four days in April 1963. Now that is the profound document. The ‘I have a Dream’ speech is an example of his prophetic belief in the goodness of America. But it is not an instructive political or social document. It’s a document of an enormous social commentary.”
And in your opinion, what impact does the civil rights movement have on the world? Do you see the followers of these deeds in the other places of the world? Non-violence movement, non-violence protest, which are reaching some results?
“I guess the classic example is the Arab Spring, the Tarhir Square in Egypt. And Indonesia. These are classic examples. The application of Gandhi, the principles of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr., applied to those local national circumstances.”
What about Orange Revolution?
“Including the Orange Revolution. But as I said earlier, many revolutions have a phase of development that they go through. Their success and durability depend upon the extent in which they can keep the broad-based coalition of support, including support from the security forces in the country. And the other thing is that the revolutions can be protected and prevented from being dissipated or stained by the absence of personal integrity in the leadership. Charges of corruption, charges of the absence of personal integrity can disenchant, can cause people to become very cynical. This is in the United States, so it cannot be in Egypt. All movements, by the way. I consider the greatest threat to movements what I call agent provocateur syndrome, that third party group that tries to attach itself to the movement that has its own agenda and only uses the movement as a vehicle to achieve its own agenda, most of which is inconsistent. And many of those agendas can aggravate the opposition to oppose the movement, but more important is that they diminish the opportunity for other parts of the population to join the coalition because they looked at it as some crazy thing.”
Why have you chosen to deliver lectures in Ukrainian universities?
“I had the opportunity. I learned that I could be invited. And when I learned that, I must say, it is precisely because of Ukraine’s recent history of political development that I thought it was useful to come there. Ukraine, in the long view of history is not the new country. But in fact it is a new country. Current Ukraine, because it is new, it started in 1991. Whole new political system emerged. Before that it had an existence, but it was a different political entity. And I’m aware that one of the reasons that enable the new Ukraine to be born was the Orange Revolution. And I thought, what a better place to go to discuss and explain the legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr., than Kyiv. I thought they would appreciate knowing about it. So, that’s the reason I came.”
What did impress you during the lectures? Maybe some questions from the Ukrainian audience?
“What impressed me was the extent of their knowledge about Dr. King. He was not a stranger to them. Their questions and curiosity rose from the fact that they really had a genuine interest in knowing more about this man. So in that sense I’m glad I could come here. I participate in raising their level of understanding and in giving them more information about what he was, who he was, and what he did. I think it is very important for people in Ukraine who are genuinely interested in social change and bringing about greater opportunities for the Ukrainian people, economic and political opportunities, to study the civil rights movement. And they should learn more about Dr. King, Jr. There are some lessons that are transnational and not limited to national borders.”
How did you convince your son to come here with you?
“I didn’t have to convince him. It was his birthday. And he was disappointed that I was not going to spend his birthday with him in the States. He wanted very much to spend his birthday with me. And the only way it was possible was to come to Ukraine. So that’s what he did. I’m very touched. And I think he’s having a good time.”
Where did you get the strength and inspiration to do what you are doing?
“All I have to do is think back on the legacy and on the sacrifice that Dr. King made, including the ultimate sacrifice in losing his life. I then said to myself: this is the least I can do. I keep repeating over and over. I am blessed for the accident of longevity. I lived to be 82, and he died at the age of 39. So, I want to use this gift that is given to me in his honor.”
The topics of your lectures range from slavery to Obama. You put special impact on Obama, not on Nixon who gave affirmative action program?
“No. What happened in response to a question about Richard Nixon and his contribution to the civil rights movement? Generally, I may not be using the exact words, and I pointed out that he made a major contribution by being the first president of the United States to task the secretary of labor to design the program of affirmative action. So, those are simply historical facts. Some people would like to change them, but those are the facts.”
Concerning Obama, many journalists blame him for being not like President Johnson who could work with Congressmen, Senators, etc. to fix things, to fix programs. Obama is going to people, telling them what should be done. Is such policy effective or not?
“Obama’s leadership is unique to him. I think there are some lessons he can learn from someone like President Johnson. One of those lessons is that if you have the power, use it. I think he is doing more on the second term when he has to leave. I think he will recognize that he is the president and he has the presidential power.”
