Professor at the La Sapienza University of Rome, a leading research fellow at Ukraine’s Shevchenko Institute of Literature, and one of the most brilliant contributors to Den, Oxana PACHLOVSKA belongs to that rare kind of people in talking with whom one forgets about time. And it is hard to tell whether the reason for this lies in her universal erudition (linguistics, philosophy, and history are all her element) or in her aphoristic manner of speaking, which implies that no word is out of place, or the fact that she is a constant follower of Ukrainian tragedies, or that Oxana is a daughter of the great contemporary Ukrainian poetess Lina Kostenko. This combination makes every conversation with Pachlovska an intellectual feast. Hopefully, our readers will be able to see this for themselves.
Larysa IVSHYNA: Oxana, what topics do you discuss with your mother when you have breaks from your work, for example, when you get together in the kitchen for tea?
Oxana PACHLOVSKA: I love those moments. This is our escape from the world. Most interestingly, an apparently customary dimension always has place for another dimension. A word, feeling, reminiscence, joke, or insight – and the warmth of the family meeting can offer a glimpse into a future project. I am blissfully privileged to be the first to take a look at it. I have always been impressed by my mother’s ability to be present simultaneously in various layers of existence and react to everything. Her authenticity is largely caused by the natural coexistence and mutual interchange between the human and professional dimensions.
L.I.: I always have a feeling that she is there, working. I understand that she has the right to keep silent. But something in my character does not agree with this.
O.P.: This is the question of mother’s maximalism. It is up to her to decide. She is a writer who does not stand any pressure from the outside, no deadlines, fashion, or advertising – nothing but her inner imperative, the quality of her work, and the dialogue she has with herself, as well as her work. I think it is a form of autonomy that one should learn to be able to decode. “I always carry my freedom with me.”
Once you carried a publication about Lina Kostenko, and its title used the words Yevhen Malaniuk said about my mother in times of her debut, “The Bearer of Sovereign Intonation” (Den’s issue no. 50, March 20, 2004). The category of sovereign creative work and personality has been neglected, almost forgotten under our circumstances. A writer frequently turns into a sort of a rocker, dealer, showman or showwoman, his own manager, or even a raider – anything but the writer. As a literary critic, I have developed idiosyncrasy to the mere expression “a cult writer.” This is the level of
Huliai Pole literature presented by pseudo-Makhno on a pseudo-cart, and is a postmodern remake of Sovietism, which has not yet managed to disintegrate and continues to hang in the social consciousness like a toxic cloud.
By the way, even silence speaks. In far-gone years mother wrote: I am erecting silence like a philharmonic hall,/A sleepless hall with pillars made of fir trees. Or in the same poem: The forerunner of freedom is a desperate escape/ from artful thoughts into wandering smoke. The forerunner of freedom is the one capable of this internal escape, independence. Or another piece by her: Oh, don’t seek the bitter honey of fame!/ That honey is bad, produced by stinging bees./ Seek to say with your pale lips,/ at least a few words that people need.
This is the duty of a poet, not so much before people in general or one’s own people, but before his/her own gift, because talent is always a “telescope” given by God in order that a person could look into the timeless aspects of existence. And, by the way, the duty of people is to hear these words. Actually, an intellectual is an ever oppositionist. And today, in general, there is a need for new dissidents. In this sense, my mother’s sovereignty is a magnet of freedom that we have not yet achieved. But I believe that sooner or later this freedom has to materialize. The way to real political freedom lies through the intellectual and spiritual freedom of individuals.
L.I.: Lina Kostenko can set the standard Ukraine should reach in many dimensions, because her maximalism and nonconformism are a unique phenomenon. We should have individuals who produce a high “standard of quality,” which should be necessarily followed by a movement of moral refusal to join or denial. I can say that she embodies Ukrainian Ghandhism.
O.P. I don’t known whether it can be called Ghandhism, as my mother has too rebellious a character for Ghandhism. I also have great doubts concerning the “mass nature” of such a moral movement. The parable of society’s moral renewal is always complicated and slow. Besides, it should base itself on certain constants of traditions, while in our case colonialism and totalitarianism have become systemic deconstruction of such moral entities as honor and dignity.
L.I.: Okay, but this time there is a need for rebellion that will be heard. If this rebellion is vertically directed with it energy streaming into the space, it will return to the sinful earth a generation later, according to noosphere laws. But I would like to grasp today what abyss separates us from what Ukraine has sought to have and what it has nowadays.
O.P.: I more than agree with you. But, let’s return to maximalism: as long as I remember myself, mother has always been working in many registers simultaneously.
The same is today. Moreover, the registers where she is working have acquired such a strong differentiation now that I marvel at her colossal energy. It seems to me that she is always plugged in and feels the current of the time. This is a great gift that mother is able to work simultaneously with the past, present, and future. And she organizes and reorganizes these spaces in a very interesting way. Therefore, we have this “vertical” movement into the space, as you say. But she never becomes disconnected with reality and every pulsating, painful problematic moment of out life.
As for the abyss between the cherished Ukraine and Ukraine of today… Our country is a strange paradox. A writer is traditionally viewed as a prophet here, whereas his/her words are not given an in-depth consideration. We have a considerably lower number of those who read Malaniuk, Tychyna’s early works, or Stus than the buffs of another “cult” writer or obscene language. The Western tradition is closer to me; it uses fewer epithets with reference to writers, but their works have been critically interpreted on a variety of levels. And their youth grows within the context of culture as the necessity of knowledge. Without efforts or ethic discipline, it is impossible to either achieve internal freedom, or build a state. These are complex philosophical notions, rather than a rhetorical exercise whose only aim is to receive applause.
L.I.: I have recently read Kostenko’s poems on a website. Among them I found the poem entitled “Colored mice.” It is not a philosophical abstract notion, but almost a fairytale; it poem confirms the need to pay attention to individuality. And when we appeal to you with a request to reprint your mother’s collections of work, I can only imagine what you feel and what a huge responsibility it is.
O.P. Mother has several new books that are on their way to the readers. I am telling you this as an improvised “literary agent,” as Ivan Malkovych likes to joke. In reality, the life of such a “literary agent” is not simple, when you deal with mother’s maximalism, on the one hand, and her irony, on the other hand. We have recently recalled our childhood years – those of my mother, my daughter Yaroslava-Francesca, and mine. Mother smiled, “What can I do? I can climb trees and gather mushrooms.” She often quotes the line by the Polish poetess Maria Pawlikowska-Jasnorzewska: “My quality is crying tears of immortality.” This is an answer to many questions.
Once Volodymyr Panchenko made an interesting radio program about “The Colored Mice,” namely in terms of individuality. In general, I happen to see poetry produce an electrifying in most unusual situations.
A very nice and talented person has recently asked me to recite the poem “A golden cradle is standing surrounded by roses” on the phone. I did not have the book at hand, and she needed the text. I recited: “With words yet to come, poetry is already here.” And suddenly the woman started crying. A single line! But indeed, the poetry begins before words are uttered, and only after that the words are born. It is when “The Day comes to an end./ The night is taking over the reign./ And somebody from the above is dictating / the unexpected words.” Or, a poet is like an “addict to the lost sense,/ its Sisyphus, alchemist, and an ant.”
I am viewing these problems not only in terms of emotions they evoke, but also as a linguist. These lines contain an understanding of the word which seems to be burned out of the reality. By the way, they were written at the time when The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus was not yet known in Ukraine (is it known today?!). But then understanding of the ontological and esthetic fullness of the word is quite a similar thing.
Incidentally, today the Ukrainian literature is being analyzed as a phenomenon taking place in a vacuum. This is an inexcusable methodological error, because our literature fully, with its every fiber and dimension, has deep evolutionary roots in the European cultural process. Until Ukrainian literature is reread with an understanding that it is an inseparable part of European literature and unless the European canon of Ukrainian literature is established, the country will have a short circuit of its identity.
L.I.: Lina Kostenko studied in Moscow together with important people of that time. Clearly, she has preserved a deep understanding of the Russia that has not materialized. But it seems to me that above all she feels compassion for us, as we have not acquired the proper significance that could be helpful not only to us but also Russians. Russia is in a much more complicated situation than Ukraine. Be it as it may, we are standing on the matrix of our identity, whereas Russians after multiple collapses of their empire have failed to find and modernize their identity.
O.P.: Studying in the Moscow Institute of Literature, namely in the context when one could have dialogue with the old Russian intelligentsia like Paustovsky, Vsevolod Ivanov, Chukovsky, Leonov, Svetlov, or study together with talented and original personalities, who later became Russian, Polish, Armenian, Lithuanian, and Georgian writers, is, naturally, an invaluable experience. Incidentally, this is, too, a paradoxical parabola: my mother (and later I, too) was not allowed to study in Ukraine because of our family “unreliability,” while studies in Moscow unwittingly helped develop contacts with the outside world, which the System feared so much.
Generally, since my early years, my parents have been fostering in me solidarity and full respect for all nations without exception and their cultures. When I was studying in Moscow University, this atmosphere was still there: the solidarity of intelligentsia, regardless of nationality, in combating totalitarianism. Bulat Okudzhava sang: “The one who unsheathes his sword against our union/ Will deserve the worst punishment,/ I will never give a broken guitar/ For his life then./ The century is so anxiously seeking/ To find a gap in our chain…/ Let’s join arms, my friends,/ Not to be killed one by one.”
Take another experience in Jerusalem; I met with Jewish dissidents, and they told me how Ukrainian dissidents had saved their life in exile, I remember I was attending a conference in Jerusalem many years ago, phoned home, and thanked my parents that they had fostered in me this feeling of care and love for peoples and their problems. This enables me to be at home everywhere and fall victim to absurd stereotypes. I am not afraid to criticize my reality when I find it necessary. But I will never allow anybody to treat my Fatherland and culture in a violent way.
In a word, that situation bore the mark of nobleness. After all, in those times Europe demonstrated constant solidarity. And now I have a feeling that everyone has abandoned Russian intelligentsia, which has to fight on quite real barricades. Europe seems to have finally reserved a place for Russia outside Europe, which means giving up the prospects of democracy in Russia. In a word, give us gas and do whatever you like: “normalize” the Caucasus, shoot members of the opposition, as if the rules of the civilized world should not pertain to Russia.
We have also become mere observers – inert observers! – of the persecution of Russian intelligentsia, which is trying to save the European Russia. This same Russian intelligentsia continues to show the same “old” nobleness and solidarity towards Ukraine, – let us recall what Afanasyev, Illarionov, and Novodvorskaya say about Ukraine, and finally, what Sakharov said. Living alongside this kind of Russia would mean conflict-free relations, parity and mutual understanding without “everlasting brotherhood” schizophrenia, which for dozens of peoples has become a torture chamber for many centuries.
We frequently hear people around complaining about our “troubles,” pessimistic forecasts, etc. This is manifestation of inertness and lack of will to work. It seems paradoxical, but this has become a rule: Ukraine is split only along the line dividing Europe and non-Europe. On the one side there is European Ukraine, where any other national and cultural element can be implemented and strike root, because in this European dimension there is no place for discrimination of others. On the other side there is Soviet Ukraine, where “non-Russian” things are viewed as “hostile”: the paranoia of Ivan the Terrible has proved to be a contagious disease. Nevertheless, despite all difficulties, the European principles have considerably higher chances of winning than the anachronistic Sovietism, which is doomed to dying out. One should only be aware of those processes and work on completion of Ukraine’s European identity.
The situation in Russia is indeed tragic. Contemporary Russia has experienced the collapse of its statehood twice during a century, and each time it lost any continuity in its cultural code. The conquered territories turned into a curse. Centuries of Russification have only made it possible to assimilate them merely on the level of deculturization, information blockade, and ideological brainwashing.
In fact, Russia does not have any functional modern identity. Is its identity represented by Orthodoxy? Then where would you put non-Russian peoples, especially against the background of the demographic expansion of Islamic peoples and the growing Chinese populace? Or is this a Eurasian country? Why, then, are Tajiks, Uzbeks, Georgians, Armenians, and Azerbaijani periodically killed by neo-Nazis of various kinds? The fight for “white Russia” in 2006-08 led to over 1,500 attacks and claimed 250 lives. These figures are catastrophic. I mean any unification project authored by Russia turns into disunity, conflicts, andcultural and political tragedies for Russia’s neighbors.
This has been very well described by the American researcher Eva Thompson in her work Troubadours of the Empire: Russian Literature and Colonialism (Kyiv, Osnovy, 2006). This research studies the specific features of the Russian literature of the 19th century when the Russian imperial dimension acquired its final shape. It contains an extremely interesting opinion about the unstable, ever-changing, and uncrystallized identity of Russia. Thomson writes that in what concerns Europe, Russia has presented an authentically Slavic and thus anti-European identity; in what concerns Slavs – a unifying Russian identity; with regard to the Caucasus – a European identity. As a result, it became confused by all of its manipulative identities.
In a word, Russia is now made up of non-communicating fragments that remain at different stages of historical development. It is trying to be a 20th-century empire, juggling with a nuclear doctrine. Russia has not even made an elementary step in building a democratic society. The past has made a comeback. Therefore, on an August morning in 2008 we learned that two more human rights champions1 were murdered, and later that day Medvedev, dressed all in black Mussolini-style, threatened Ukraine, speaking against the background of Black Sea warships. This is absolute surrealism, which is followed by 50 million dollars paid to a Pacific Ocean state, Nauru Republic, for acknowledging Abkhazia’s independence. A couple more millions – and Nauru recognized Ossetia as well.
In a nutshell, one thing is clear: giving up the European path is a tragic (and strategic!) mistake made by present-day Russia. But we, too, are paying for this mistake as we appear to be a buffer zone lacking historical prospects. This is quite a high price, which will be a heavy burden on the shoulders of our future generations.
L.I.: In the book Two Rus’es from The Day’s Library Series we asked ourselves a bold question at the time (2003): How can we help Russia? And we answered it in the following way: The more European we are, the healthier Russia will be.
O.P.: Absolutely. In general, this is a phantasmagoric situation: it seems that Russia’s hatred for its former “fraternal nations” is proportional to its rhetoric about yesterday’s “friendship of fraternal nations,” and in what concerns Ukraine, this hatred has been raised to the nth power. The country’s leadership has simply lost its skill to speak politely and in a politically correct language with its neighbors. This political falsetto is an indication of weakness and hysteria.
Russia has lately been seized by a fever of destruction. Surely, it is no easy thing to put up with the fact that no Eastern European country seeks to unite with Russia, and even the ancient Orthodox fortresses like Bulgaria and Serbia have either joined the EU or aspire to receive membership. In a belated move, speaking before Serbian parliament recently, the Russian president assured that Russia has a “strategic partnership with the European Union,” and, in general, “is not and cannot be in any way allergic to the fact that new members, specifically from Eastern Europe, are joining the EU.” Thank you for your permission. You have forgotten how Russian politicians were shouting something about building a united state with “fraternal Serbia” in the early 1990s. And ungrateful Serbia has given over its military criminals to The Hague, and waved good-bye to “Orthodox brotherhood.”
So, all of Russia’s scenarios to recreate the “Russian world” have failed. Therefore Ukraine is the last bridgehead for Russia to play out its old ideological performance. But now Russia is waging an especially cruel war against Ukraine. Therefore Ukraine’s moving towards Europe may help Russia’s political modernization. If Ukraine’s moves towards Russia, it can only prolong the agony of post-Soviet dead end, which will be followed by another political and economic collapse. Actually, Andrey Illarionov speaks about the “third collapse of Russia.”
Furthermore, there is another dramatic process: the intellectual and moral crisis of Orthodoxy. Southern Slavs have left for the West. First, Russia started a war with Orthodox Georgia, and now it is threatening Orthodox Ukraine. Russian Orthodoxy has practically proclaimed that it is anti-European in its intrinsic cultural content. Historically, Europe is identified with Christianity, among other things. Isn’t Russian Orthodoxy a part of Christianity? Kyivan Rus’, according to Patriarch Kirill, is a “unique civilization project,” whereas the West is producing “candy wrappers.” What intellectual invalids were these words addressed to?
L.I.: Apart from everything else, the West is producing Breguet watches, not only “candy wrappers.”
O.P.: Precisely. And the world synchronizes its watches with Breguet, not Zenit. Father Andrey Kuraiev, another bitter enemy of Ukraine, even called this a “peculiar form of Christian humbleness”: we wear what we receive as a present.2 And the most important thing is that we are professing asceticism. This discourse by Russian propagandists reminds me of the titles of websites like halava.info (from the Russian word meaning “freebie”). By the way, this website’s catalogue features among its items a Breguet watch.
This year marks 20 years since the Berlin War fell. One film featured a lady telling that after she had escaped over the wall, she needed to take only two steps for people to understand from her face and clothes that she was from “Russian” Berlin. The drama is that Russia continues to borrow solely material things from the West – cars, villas, clothes, gadgets, and currency, while completely ignoring the Europe intellectual and moral heritage, from antique to modern times, which has actually made Europe a unique civilization project.
L.I.: Spiritual people can’t find a place for themselves. They go to church only to find themselves in the headquarters of political technology. I cannot believe that Patriarch Kirill, appealing to his believers, could recommend women not to use cosmetic creams. But he understands that the believers of his church include many people with insufficient level of education, culture. and welfare, and precisely these people were his target audience. And now the time for existential topics has come. In other words, we are talking about the degree of pastorship in this message.
O.P.: There is no pastorship in this message. It is a result of the Orthodox Church’s politization, which has been taking place in Russia since the times of Ivan the Terrible. Peter I ultimately placed the church under the political rule, thus depriving the church of moral autonomy. That is the reason why it was so easy to destroy religion after the October Revolution – it was built on the ground of ideological rhetoric and did not have a necessary internal spiritual defense.
That is the reason why it was equally easy to restore the rhetoric dimension of Orthodoxy in post-Soviet Russia. Who are the main friends of the Moscow Patriarchate in our country? Communists. During the Orange Revolution the anti-Ukrainian movement in the Crimea went on a demonstration under the flags with Stalin’s portrait and the slogan “Orthodoxy or death!”
Residents of Odesa and Sevastopol are restoring the monument to Catherine II, a German who disdained Slavs, turned them into slaves, confiscated monasteries and church property in a predatory manner, and deported peoples. Catherine’s court spoke German, but followed French fashion, and sold peasant girls to Western guests – you can read about this in the Russian memoirs of Giacomo Casanova, a noted specialist in this sort of affairs. The girls’ fathers kneeled before the “buyers” and thanked them for this high favor. Today the immoral and corrupted nature of both Russian and Ukrainian societies is, in particular, a result of nationalized religion, forced secularization, destruction of the clergy and the laymen who were authentic believers.
L.I.: First of all, we can see now how many elderly people are dying in poorly equipped retirement homes, specifically in Russia. There are apparent demographic problems. Interestingly, the program of Patriarch Kirill’s Ukrainian visit did not include any visit to hospitals or hospices. Instead, he was mingling with our politicians. In fact, he did not fix attention on souls, spiritual aspirations, or real feelings. A barrier was erected before the people, and only “honored” ones were permitted to cross the line. This is the crisis of the church.
“O.P.: This is an appalling and tragic crisis of the church. Because faith has fallen under effect of ideology and lost contact with reality, while its feeling of mercy and solidarity have atrophied. Let us recall how many missionaries are now working in Africa, Asia, in the most dramatic corners of the planet, in warlike conditions, drought, and epidemic. I am asking, Are there any Orthodox believers among the missionaries who are rescuing people, above all children, from famine, cold, disease, and violence? No, these are representatives of Western Christian denominations, like Catholicism and Protestantism.
“Who is dealing with society’s moral wounds like orphans, lost youth, abandoned old people, marginal elements, and prisoners? The same people. Who is building hospitals in the heart of war conflicts, trying to save lives of people from both belligerents? The same people. The West was built through the dichotomy and confrontation of the throne and the church. A Catholic, who has the Vatican behind him, does not speak of “Holy Italy.” A Protestant will never come up with an idea to speak about “Holy Germany.” But Russian priests are blessing nuclear rockets and invoke diseases upon journalists. Isn’t this Middle Ages? A nuclear age, but still a dark one. A worthy legacy of “Genghis Khan with a phone,” i.e., Stalin.
“The most important thing is that going to war with the surrounding Orthodox world and pursuing anti-European policies, Russia has barely anything to oppose Europe with. There are neither philosophers nor theologians – they were all destroyed by the Soviet power, only militarist ignoramuses, writing abracadabra about “our Russian sun” in the “Russian universe.”“This kind of ideology can find a following only among uneducated and marginalized categories of the population.
“Meanwhile, those Orthodox Slavic peoples, which are now in the EU and whose intellectual and spiritual Orthodox tradition is insufficiently consolidated and has many times been broken, will easily fall under the influence of secularization processes in the West. For no matter how “unique” the civilization project of “Holy Rus’” was, the top ten universities of the world include those of “not-so-holy” Great Britain and even less “holy” America, while the “third Rome” is lagging behind, excuse my saying so. And today it is namely the intellectual progress that makes the civilization advance, regardless of the “grandeur” the Kremlin rulers see in their dreams.
“L.I.: Oxana, what should Ukraine do in this situation?
“O.P.: First, it should stop thinking that everything depends on politicians and that everything begins and starts with politicians. In reality, everything starts and ends with every individual, because the democratic world has so far been the only and truly unique civilization project, where everyone has rights and duties, stipulated by the law, where every person is provided with freedom and dignity, where a person does not look into the future with fear. All of this started not today but in Ancient Greece, when the border between Europe and non-Europe was viewed as a demarcation line between the Hellenic world, the world of freedom, and the Persian, Asian world of tyranny. Greeks thought that only a world of freedom can give rise to a person who would defend his own freedom as well as that of his homeland’s, rather than being inert material in a tyrant’s hands.
“What about politicians? Romans were right in saying that every society has the rulers it deserves.
“Second, a society should have a developed moral and critical awareness of history, moral and critical dimension of historical memory. Once I heard a radio program about the Holodomor. A listener reacted on the phone (speaking in Russian): “What is the difference who died and when?” This is a wonderful illustration of the “unique civilization project” as a space of destroyed morals. A great part of this society is vegetating on the bones of their ancestors and does not have a clue about the moral parameters of memory. And the more such people our society has, the less hope is left for the future.
“But the reconstruction of memory should proceed in parallel to the process of restoring culture as a system. The Soviet rule was a genocide combined with the plebeianization of all countries that found themselves in the range of this destructive ideology. The culture was destroyed by way of plebeianization and lumpenization of social mentality. A person wearing eyeglasses (thus literate!) was immediately the “enemy of the people.” The aim of this process was to turn man into a biological creature for which everything that belongs to ethic and esthetics is unnecessary and malign redundancy.
“So, a descendant of this collective lumpen asks today, “What is the difference who died and when?” In this sense, the restoration of historical memory is also a way to make our society more European, as the value of every separate human life is one of basic concepts of the “European idea.”
“Third, there is a need for systemic and consistent comprehension of Europe’s cultural content. There is a need for huge work to be carried out by institutions and individual specialists, aimed at spreading of authentic European knowledge in society – above all, among young people, schools, and higher education institutions. This will help “complete” Ukrainian cultural identity and make Ukrainian advancement to Europe conscious and purposeful.
L.I.: I want to draw your attention to the following detail. All of us used to be unaware of certain things and still have gaps in our knowledge. Journalists and all citizens, too, should make efforts. During our visit to Baturyn this year, we learned that in times of Ivan Mazepa this town was granted Magdeburg rights. This is where Europe ended at the time, bordering on steppes with no settlements. What meaning did this fact have for the residents of this land? There are wonderful books like The Everyday Life of Germans in Hitler’s Time or The Everyday Life in the Times of Italian Renaissance. But nobody is writing books about the everyday life of Ukrainians in cities that were granted Magdeburg law. And by the way, there were 32 mills in Baturyn. Let’s face it, there were also numerous manufactories that produced glazed tiles. Some of them were of such a high quality that they would enrapture us even now.
O.P.: And we would not rush to buy Spanish or Turkish glazed tiles. Masters that lay tiles, make a condition: no domestically produced tiles! Once I heard a lady asking the worker who did repair works for her whether he used parquet varnish produced in Ukraine. He gave a short reply, “Do we have anything Ukrainian? Only Chornobyl.” The same refers to Russian manufacturing. I mean, Magdeburg rights were an implementation of city governance culture, limited feudal lords’ power, and empowered various categories of the population to take the initiative. In a nutshell, I am speaking again about the culture of developing the dimension of citizenship. Incidentally, I must note how Europe is working in Ukraine: there are many interventions, actually on the level of local self-government and local infrastructure. If we don’t introduce order in our “small homeland,” we won’t be able to seriously develop our big Fatherland.
I have recently seen Germans restoring Lviv’s old town. The restorer was so carefully, so accurately clearing some baroque ornament with a brush… Bavarian masters are restoring Lviv, while our restorers may be gathering tomatoes somewhere in Portugal. And all this against the background of some Ukrainian politicians having plundered Lviv museums, archives, libraries, and taken icons abroad. Even earlier, Bolsheviks had razed to the ground churches and cathedrals, having stolen all of their gold and silver, while some professionals risked their lives to preserve artistic phenomena only to be executed for this or sent to Siberia on freight trains. That was indeed a “unique civilization project,” unique in its cruelty and lack of talent.
Still, in spite of this, nothing in history vanishes without a trace. Kyiv Mohyla and Ostroh academies are vivid examples of the fact that all destructions notwithstanding, the culture will rise – and rebel!
L.I.: The 20th century witnessed two monsters. One of them was beheaded at the Nuremberg process, whereas the second has taken a different shape and is still active. But it seems that we and Russians Sacrificed so much to win in World War II, and now they hate us and love Germans. It seems to me that Germans, too, like Russians more. What is the reason for these ardent feelings? Why do they show red light to Ukraine, which is moving, though unsteadily, in the Euro-Atlantic direction? Do you agree with the statement that can sometimes be heard that Europe, especially Western Europe, is behaving in a rather egoistic manner concerning Ukraine, does not want to see it from close up, thus multiplying our problems? Aren’t Ukrainians themselves to blame for this, for the most part?
O.P.: The renowned Italian Slavicist Vittorio Strada wrote that Europe’s destiny is decided through alliances and confrontation between Russia and Germany, while the world’s destiny is decided through alliances and conflicts between Russia and the US. Another reason why the EU was not too eager to see the USSR’s collapse is that it predicted that Germany would unite in this case, and the EU was terrified by this prospect. Germans have a strong imperial ambition in their historical tradition, hence this feeling with Russia.
In his time, Tyutchev viewed Russian-German alliance as a force that could oppose the rest of Europe. This latent opposition between Germany and Europe is still there today, hence the Nord Stream project and the idea to establish the Berlin–Paris–Moscow axis. After all, let us recall the fact that the entire Russian neo-Eurasian theory was mainly borrowed from the German geopolicy. And European neo-Eurasianism is based, in its turn, on neo-Fascist and neo-Nazi forces. A nice company!
There are so many texts in Russia about an inseparable alliance between Russia and Germany that are coming from neo-pagans of Nazi and, logically, anti-Semitic direction and interpreters of World War II. Den has carried a publication about one of them, Sergey Kremlev. According to this apology for a historian, America was the country that started World War II.3 There was also an assumption that “cunning” Poland incited the war, as it did not yield to the legitimate territorial claims made by the Reich. In other words, Georgia and all the rest, did you get the message? And Germans at times pay for this love with black ingratitude, so to say, like that Bavarian butcher, who recently said in court: “Russians will devour anything.” This was his explanation for supplying rotten meat to Russia.4
Besides special sympathy for Germany, one can see in Russia, despite of its traditional aggressive rhetoric, admiration for the West and thinly veiled disdain for its Slavic “brothers.” Russia is treating them as something it owns and can crush if it wants to, while the West makes others reckon with it.
Countries may also be in need of psychoanalysis. Such conduct is mostly typical of the states whose grandeur is for the most part fictitious. Full-fledged empires, such as Great Britain or the Habsburg Empire, at times showed noble aspirations, because their state-building matrix included the notion of responsibility for the destiny of other peoples and the notion of their own honor.
Incidentally, Russia is aggressively reacting to the memory of Katyn, the Holodomor, and repressions. But in Russia itself a cemetery of Wehrmacht soldiers was discovered near Kursk, and German teenagers go there annually to take care of the graves. I agree with this from the viewpoint of Christian ethic. But the question remains. It appears that our dead have no right to be remembered as Russia’s victims, whereas dead occupiers and the killers of Russia itself deserve to be remembered and cared about by local authorities?
So, our dead are “enemies.” After all, why would Russia take care of our dead if it does not gather the bones of its own soldiers? Why should they? They are no Germans, who make others respect them. Igor Chubais says that nearly two million Russians remain unburied since the time of the war. Specifically, in Kaliningrad oblast local authorities have forbidden reburials because of a lack of money. So people look for the bones of their dead and keep them in their garages.5
Regarding Europe’s attitude to Ukraine, it seems to me that two aspects are dominating here. On the one hand, Europe pragmatically sees the energy problem as a priority, which is why it apparently does not want to risk relations with Russia. But, on the other hand, the main reason is that Ukraine does not show consistency and firmness in asserting its European identity. Brussels understands very clearly what ringing emptiness is sometimes heard in the European integration statements made by our state officials.
What about our politicians, who are breathlessly running the marathon to the Moscow throne? When one of the first persons in the state announces that Russia’s Black Sea Fleet should stay in Ukraine after 2017, the word “constitution” should be removed from our dictionaries. This kind of statement confirms that the year 2004 has not taught us anything, and some local political zombies still hope that the main Ukrainian ballot box stands in the chambers of Ivan the Terrible.
One forum participant bitterly said in this regard: “Judases will increase in number before the elections.” And Shevchenko described our politicians in his poem “Son” written 150 years ago: “All sweaty, they are crowding,/ To stand closer to his majesty, waiting for either a blow/ Or they will make a favor/ Of showing a tiny fig,/ Or half a fig/ To one’s very mug.”
The Kremlin will be generous during these elections. It will give us half a fig, or one-fourth of a fig. But absolutely right before the “mug.”
Europe is made up of countries with strong identity. That is the reason why it reacts consistently and adequately only when a country seeking membership sends a clear imperative signal: we are a country of the European field, so please be ready to accept this as a given. This can be proved only by the implementation of a system of necessary reforms – in practice, rather than in virtual reality! These reforms should develop the democratic system.
L.I.: Perhaps, Russia should adopt the American model, which has more in common with it? If Russia cannot feel that it is a European state, it is quite capable of creating “united states” if it recognizes freedom as a value.
O.P.: Your last formula may contain the key to the problem. Sometimes there is an aberration of the view that Russia is a European country. Why is it European? Some Europeans reply that Russians are so fond of Italian fashion… Real, not fictitious, as it is now, federalization could be a guideline for Russia. Otherwise, how can it unite such different fragments as St. Petersburg and Ingushetia, Tatarstan and the Green Ukraine, and shamanic Siberian peoples and Islamic enclaves in a harmonious way? Only through integration, political correctness, and democratic development of its society.
But in reality this is impossible, again because the country’s identity is weak. Once I talked about this with a talented anthropologist who worked in France and Greece. She is half-Finnish, half-Russian. She told me how much she loved St. Petersburg and the Mariinsky Theater. I asked her whether she loved Grozny in the same way. I heard in response: “Grozny? It’s awful!” So, she does not have a concrete dimension of homeland in her consciousness. If Chechnya is Russia, why would they destroy it? But Grozny should be granted the same rights as St. Petersburg in this case. If it is not Russia, why don’t they let it live according to its own laws? Whatever political problems there may be, Rome is not bombarding Sicily and Madrid does not raze Basque Country to the ground.
Actually, an understanding of the fact that the Russian integration project failed, whereas the American and European ones did not, makes Russia treat the West in such an aggressive way because democracy is a threat to centralized and autocratic government, i.e., a clan that has seized all the resources of the country. That is why the territory of the struggle between Russia and Europe has narrowed down to Ukraine. Ukraine is hosting the last battle of the democratic world on its territory. This makes it all the more imperative that we develop and deepen our awareness of where we belong culturally.
L.I.: We have witnessed various models of building historical memory. Why, despite all our past conflicts with Poland, do we have such positive relations with this country at the moment, in contrast to Russia? What role will Poland play in Ukraine’s future?
O.P.: Relations between Ukraine and Poland are an extremely interesting cultural, moral, and political paradigm of how Europe has taken root in a Slavic land. In order to comprehend the regularities in today’s relations between Ukraine and Poland, one should look back as far as the 19th century. It was then that both countries, after bloodstained pages of international and religious conflicts, regained each other through an understanding of each other’s tragedy.
Both countries lost their statehood, fell victim to the pressures of Russification, and risked being wiped away from the map of Europe. This situation was followed by a colossal ethic advance owing, above all, to a couple of revelations. First, each country managed to acknowledge “its fathers’ guilt” for the collapse of the neighbor. Second, both Poland, and Ukraine have declared that own freedom is impossible without the other one’s freedom. Hence the slogan of the November riot in 1830-31: “For your and our freedom!”
Hence the feeling of Poland as a “sister” in Kostomarov’s Books of the Genesis of the Ukrainian People, which appeared against the background of the tragic texts (first of all, for Russia itself, in terms of morality!) written by Russian writers and aimed against Poland. Let us recall at least Tyutchev’s words: “This is the way we dealt a fatal blow/ On sorrowful Warsaw,/ This bloodstained price will buy/ Integrity and peace for Russia!” But, as it appeared, despite furious pressure, Russia’s imperialist body continued to disintegrate. It failed to “gather under Russian flag/ The native generations of Slavs,” and today all who could escape to Europe have done so, while those have not managed to do so are going to.
But from Kosciuszko to Giedroyc, to incumbent Polish intellectual politicians Ukraine has been viewed as Poland’s partner in fighting for European values, all this despite the renewal of political conflicts in the 20th century, despite the Volhynian tragedy, and Operation Vistula. The work of Polish and Ukrainian historians on these topics has gradually but confidently removed the shadows from the relations between our peoples. Even today you can come across jingoists on both sides, but the countries have built a cultural, political, and institutional area of dialogue and continue to do so every day.
This is a bright example of the fact that the constant of European values may act as a wonderful regulator of relations between peoples. To have such a neighbor as Poland is one of the strongest guarantees today that Europe will continue to pay attention to Ukraine. Poland is a very consistent and firm in its principles, specifically because of its staunch European identity. Therefore, I am sure that in the future these relations will become one of the most important pages of advancement of the democratic world into Eastern Europe.
L.I.: You have promised to Den to write the book Mother and Antichrist. In what stage is it now on its way to print?
O.P.: Several years ago this book, whose initial topic was the Holodomor, seemed almost ready to me. But the deeper I delved into this problem, the greater abyss of unstudied material I discovered. Actually, the book has turned into a research of European historical memory models and their moral, cultural, and political influence on the development of civic society. Germany and Russia, Russia and the USSR, Poland and Ukraine, Italy and Turkey: the history of comprehension of guilt and Sacrifice in these countries, their ability to repent, have mercy, and experience catharsis, is always a way to self-identification in the contemporary world, a calculated measure of own responsibility, and eventually developed democracy.
The FRG, for example, has an entire state program of “overcoming the past,” which aims to provide self-purification to society and preclude anti-democratic forces from returning to power. The West has boundless philosophical and sociological literature dedicated to this topic. The recent events, in particular the long-awaited official recognition of Nazism and Communism as equal evils by European institutions, indicate how difficult it is for Europe to heal the wounds of the 20th century.
The history of, say, the Holodomor has been at least to some extent studied on the level of factual material, so the main problem is that the question of the cultural matrix of Russian totalitarianism remains open. So many books have been written about mythical Russian “kindness,” but, given its “karatayevs,” how could such a cold systemic cruelty arise, which does not have a glimpse of mercy or catharsis? How has “internationalism” turned into hatred towards all peoples, without exception? How could the country, which has for centuries positioned itself as “Sacred Rus’” become the abode of Antichrist? What role is actually played here by “political Orthodoxy,” which has deprived the church of moral autonomy and society – of moral defense from the violence of the government?
Another thing is turning the territory into Fatherland. A country deprived of historical memory will always remain a territory for Cain’s crimes. Only a country capable of building an ethic parabola of historical memory will become its own Homeland and will thus understand the dimension of homeland for other peoples.
L.I.: It is, of course, a difficult and usually ungrateful business to make predictions. Still, what is your opinion, how many years, decades, or generations should pass in order to finally establish Europe in Ukraine?
O.P.: It will take at the least 15 years, if not 20. Poland’s starting positions were much more favorable: after the Berlin Wall fell, it was accepted as a part of Europe by the European countries. All these years Poland was governed by convinced and convincing supporters of Euro-Atlantic direction, in particular intellectuals. However, even in this case it needed good 15 years to integrate. And Polish farmers were protesting against the EU until the last moment, but when they received hundreds of thousands of euros for each family, they became strong supporters of Europe.
In our case, I would speak not in terms of years, but in terms of generations. The duration of the period will depend on how much today’s intellectuals will be able to build an adequate systemic knowledge of Europe and implement this knowledge in the system of education as an inseparable part of the educational cycle.
However, the dimension of society’s awareness should be viewed in a broader sense. Even routine life offers opportunities to increase the intellectual fundamentals in society. Are Russian pop music and bandit songs heard from all music sources? Okay, but then fill the television and radio programs governed by thinking people with European culture. French chansonniers, the Beatles, the traditions of Polish and Italian music, klezmer music, and American spiritual music, let alone classical music – let all of this on air and you will feel how much easier it will be to breathe in society afterwards. Let alone the absolute need – close to need for air – for regular programs about European art, literature, and history.
Instead of this, they are broadcasting some poor-quality Russian series about either valiant special military units or no less valiant bandits. This is the way they define the cultural horizon of the audience. Is there any difference as compared with Soviet times? Europe should be involved not in terms of propaganda but through education and the need for a certain cultural and civic dimension. Society’s need for freedom is fundamental for building a democracy.
The situation will not change unless the average citizen combines in themselves the three dimensions of homeland: the small homeland, where they were born, the big fatherland, which is Ukraine, and the historical cultural fatherland, which is Europe. One should come to love these three and feel the need to work for their benefit. This is the only way for a civic society to emerge.
Two things are especially needed for this: one is cultural, while the other one is ethical. In terms of culture, we can say: of course, our culture is part and parcel of the developmental dynamics of the European civilization and is its very special fragment. Baroque, Romanticism, and Modernism – philosophers, linguists, and the historians of literature and arts will have no difficulty proving this to one another in books and at conferences. However, elitist culture risks remaining a narrow (sometimes snobbish) niche for intellectuals if it does not become a complex intellectual achievement of the society. Therefore, there is a need for, again, education: elitist knowledge should be adapted and permeate the society.
The other thing is the ethic of solidarity. While patriarchs in shoulder straps tell about “candy wrappers,” the individualistic code of the European civilization risks becoming an egotistic and parasitic code in our conditions. Politicians are parasitizing on the society, while within the society one category is parasitizing another. The dimension of mercy was destroyed by the Soviet regime, and it will take a long time and hard efforts to restore it.
This is also one the phenomena that take the European prospect away from us, because in its contemporary form the European project also means that balance and welfare should be a common achievement of nations, while within them there should be more or less fair distribution of vitally important spiritual and material resources.
Long ago my mother wrote, “Let the tender fingers of ethic/ touch your heart and mouth.” The ethic of relations, working ethic, and civic behavior ethic – the broader the range of its action, the less space will be left to nourish the ghosts of the past.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery wrote: “Everyone bears the entire responsibility for all people.”
In this aspect Den’s role is unique and invaluable. Developing gradually as an intellectual project, Den is now doing this kind of work: without reducing its intellectual level, it covers a broad spectrum of both current and historical problems, thus conveying them to Ukrainian society on a daily basis. And this is being done without any propaganda or didactic accent. Just on the contrary: analysis, reflection, and a pluralist approach are the priorities. The main thing is that you address the mind and soul of every individual, above all young people. This is actually the foremost strategic direction. In this way, Den has become the laboratory of European thinking. So, this can be done!
Happy New Year! I wish you warmth and light!
1 The interviewee speaks about the August 2009 assassination of the members of NGO “Let’s save the generation” – Zarema Sadulayeva and her husband Alik Dzhabrailov. For further information see the article: Raikhel, Yurii. Will they continue to kill? Human rights champions become the main foes of the Russian power, in: Den, No. 144, Aug. 18, 2009.
2 http://www.interfax.ru/society/txt.asp?id=94236.
3 Hrabovsky, Serhii. The case of Podrabinek: “ordinary nashism,” in: Den, No. 185, Oct. 15, 2009
4 http://mycityua.com/news/world/2009/10/21/174632.html.
5 Kapsamun, Ivan. On “soft influence,” in: Den, No. 232, Dec. 22, 2009.
