A delegation of the Ukrainian non-governmental organization “International Initiative to Support Ukraine” visited Vilnius a few days ago. As part of citizen diplomacy and preparation for the Second Baltic-Black Sea Forum to be held in March in Kyiv, the delegation met some well-known Lithuanian officials, public activists, and journalists. They also discussed a number of cultural initiatives, including Den’s knowledge-enhancement projects.
Vytautas Landsbergis, honorary chairman of Sajudis, ex-chairman of the Supreme Council of Lithuania and the Seimas of the Lithuanian Republic, ex-Member of the European Parliament, gave an exclusive interview to The Day.
The first impression of Vytautas Landsbergis, the leader of Lithuania’s Sajudis, was unexpected. The first on the post-Soviet space to manage to rally thousands of people under the flag of independence, he shattered the stereotypes of a revolutionary. I saw not a shadow of a relentless fighter in his face. Standing before me was a blue-eyed sage with a warm and kind glance, who resembled a village school teacher. But, in the course of the interview, things were gradually assuming their true shape. Each of his words was making me convinced that it is no mere chance that leaders of this magnitude come into this world.
The Lithuanian Seimas conspicuously displays photographs of the people who died in Vilnius during the revolution. In Kyiv, too, portraits of the Heavenly Hundred remind people of the recent tragic events. It is a fight for freedom that united our dead heroes.
“Yes, but it is important to understand: for freedom from what? And why do we need freedom? This should be clear in the minds of people. Not only freedom from a foreign oppressor… And what are you going to do if nobody oppresses you? Will you oppress yourself? Or will you struggle for the right of oppression inside Ukraine? Or is it your goal to create a different Ukraine which is not so vulnerable to a change of power?
“I can say frankly: the Ukrainian state – moreover, the Ukrainian nation – is being shaped only now, before our eyes. Your friends are pleased that Ukrainians are at last becoming Ukrainians rather than just the population of Europe’s big chunk. It is very good that there are a large number of people in Ukraine, who want to live a qualitatively new life with support from democratic Europe.
“We can also see the state of Lithuania still in the making. It is also the truth.”
Is it because the ideas of the Lithuanian revolution are still to be fully implemented?
“Yes, we hoped for more. There are no changes in people themselves. We expected the people to become different than before. At the time, everybody was a conformist: ‘I wish nothing would change, I wish it wouldn’t be worse.’ It’s a slavish spirit, you know. But the democratic organization Sajudis showed that a totally different attitude to life can and must prevail – a creative and mutually friendly attitude, when it is possible to restore statehood and the ideals inherent in our ancestors.”
Did the active citizens who took to the streets of Vilnius go home in anticipation of a miracle after independence was gained? We were in the same situation after the 2004-05 Orange Revolution…
“Yes, if only the huge mass of bold people who came out on the streets of Vilnius and Kyiv could have been turned into a creative force! But, after the struggle, people began to scatter over various parties and influences. There was a risk of disappointment and escapement into personal interests. It is a very alarming post-revolutionary syndrome when one begins to ask the question: ‘And what have I gained personally from my struggle?’ And they begin to speak in terms of benefit and profit. It is very dangerous! In this case, we can see the loss of the main thing – what motivated hundreds of thousands of people, when they were prepared to sacrifice their lives for their country Lithuania or, in your case, when people were dying on the Maidan for Ukraine. It is important whether the spiritual Maidan will stay on, and whether the Maidan-minded people, if I may say so, who put the good of their country above their own good, can unite.”
And how does the active and committed Lithuanian citizen feel now?
“The feeling is as follows: we have done the main thing together, and now each is for himself. In this case the spiritual cause dies. What is left to do is to assess the material dividends of one another: ‘that one is now richer by so much, but why I am not richer?’ Proletarian mentality is coming back: ‘I was hurt, so it’s perhaps a good idea to take the money back or avenge myself?’ It is important for both you and us not to lose the creative spirit of people’s unity and the feeling that we can do much more together.”
Fortunately, Ukrainian civil society did not go home after the second Maidan. You can still feel the spirit of volunteerism and support. Yet many activists have joined various parties to contest elections instead of preserving their Maidan-based strength.
“I would wish civil society to have a clearer vision of what they want from themselves and from Ukraine. For the sake of what Ukraine are they living – a just, democratic, and freedom-loving Ukraine or a Ukraine where ‘I will personally feel good’? We often forget that life is rather short and there is no use in amassing incredible wealth. After all, you can only arrange a more luxurious and comfortable… coffin for yourself. But if you begin to feel that the life of your country is improving and you have made your own effort to this end, then the very sense of fighting is in this!”
Unfortunately, by contrast with Lithuania, the Maidan was not the final point here. Russia has annexed some territories and unleashed a war.
“War is the worst thing ever. Only the cohesion of people and domestic peace can overcome it. Then the mortal enemy, who is attacking you with hatred, hostility, and ruinations, will stumble over your firmness and unity.
I can say frankly: the Ukrainian state – moreover, the Ukrainian nation – is being shaped only now, before our eyes. Your friends are pleased that Ukrainians are at last becoming Ukrainians rather than just the population of Europe’s big chunk
“I often read and watch materials on Ukraine. What come first on your news lines are Crimea, the war, and the ways to resist the foreign evil. This is natural and easy-to-grasp, but not profound. The impression is that some ‘hooligan’ came and ruined your life. And if it is not this hooligan? Are there other obstacles? Do you ask yourselves what you want from your life? You must be superior to this occupational force! And not so much in terms of weapons as by showing and understanding other values of life – what it is worth fighting for. The point is not only in that foreign troops must go (this goes without saying). They should come back home, for they have ‘their own things’ to do there. Let them go to build their own country, and we will say to them before they leave: ‘Go home, guys, and work. You have so much work to do there – up to your necks!’ In my opinion, Ukraine is now taking a clearly straightforward, head-on, approach. For the Russians, you see, are doing all this by ‘their rules.’ They had even prepared their own people well in advance for this ‘head-on clash’ by sewing the seeds of hatred towards the freedom-loving Ukrainians. Naturally, if violence is applied to you, you must use force – but not so much in order to destroy this enemy (he will soon destroy himself) as in order to defeat him with intellect, heart, and, what is more, a better life.”
Here is a burning question that somewhat divides our society: some suggest that we fence off the occupied Donbas territory and focus on organizing a normal life in Ukraine, others (including President Petro Poroshenko) are taking a firm position: not an inch of Ukrainian land to the enemy! How would you respond to this challenge?
“It seems to me that both attitudes can be compatible. For it is common knowledge that ‘DNR’ and ‘LNR’ are no states at all. You can remember Crimea theatrically and hastily proclaiming itself a state… for a day. Then this ‘state’ seemed to ‘join’ Russia. It is part of a political game. The world never takes it seriously. Everybody knows that Russia seized Crimea and is seizing eastern Ukraine to the extent they can do so. They think they are ‘masters’ there. But, obviously, it is a temporary thing. This ‘temporariness’ may last from one year to decades, unfortunately. Lithuania was under occupation for 50 years off and on.
“I said during my first visit to the US (the American press quoted this later): ‘What was stolen must be returned.’ Crimea and the Donbas are the stolen territories of an independent Ukrainian state. The enemy is too strong now for you to regain them by force. But we should not forget that it is not to Putin’s benefit to put the ruined ‘Donetsk fragments’ onto his budget – to pay pensions and wages, try to restore some economy, fund social services, etc. The invader is now seriously responsible for the seized territories and the people who reside on them. It is a naive Russian idea: we will govern and, at the same time, we’ll be milking Ukraine, for it is making losses. This won’t do! If you stole, please bear responsibility and manage. Pay in terms of the economy, politics, and reputation. The Donbas people who believe in the ‘Russian World’ will have second thoughts.
“From a sober viewpoint, it is wretched to plunder a country piecemeal. Tragic and wretched. This promises no future to the occupier.
“And if you do not go to war over your lands, it does not mean that you are giving them up. And let the enemy choke with his greed – and with a stone on his neck. Of course, when he begins to choke, he may unleash a new war and try to seize other territories. Yes, it is very dangerous. It is on the brink of madness!
“What can only stop the Russian aggressor is a sober attitude of the world democratic public. We still lack this clear and unambiguous signal. There is some international pressure on the dictator, but it is insufficient, and we hear the familiar ‘we should negotiate.’ But if this results in no improvement, it is perhaps time to stop ‘burying your head in the sand’? For the simulation of negotiations will only delay the process of recovery.”
Many things unite our countries – above all, history. You were one of the initiators of the Baltic and Black Sea Civic Platform which would include Eastern European countries.
“Indeed, this idea is becoming topical because of the behavior of Russia which, instead of showing its achievements, offering new ideas and projects, and cooperating with the world, has revived the ideology of being the master of others. The terrible thing is that most Russians like this ideology. Imperialness has always been typical of Russia, but now it has received a new lease of life and is being whipped up by the Kremlin whose power rests on chauvinism and nationalism. As if Russia is better than others… And, for this reason, it should hold sway, ‘bear prosperity,’ and subjugate other nations. And the latter should ‘gratefully’ accept this subjugation… This is a ‘nice and patriotic picture’ from their viewpoint. The empire’s ordinary people are still naively surprised: why does the world not believe in such a powerful and ‘good-bearing’ Russia? They are unaware that if even good is brought on the condition of subjugation, it is no longer good. Nothing can justify aggression against neighbors and outrageous behavior with respect to other peoples and countries.
“It is for this reason that we must rally against evil and violence. This applies, above all, to the countries that still remember the imperial Russian yoke on their necks.”
